Sovereignty of SeaWitch

I think you need to have a word with the school. Do they realize they've got a member of staff infecting kids minds with this kind of rubbish.

I don't how the teacher could have even found such a hate-filled moral in what sounds like a family values story. I agree with the first commenter. Talk to the school. Teachers shouldn't be able to use the classroom for indoctrinating children with hate messages.

Yes this is ridiculous! I would go to the principal of the school and complain. I just hope it's a private school, if it's a public school this may not take you anywhere, but you should still try in my opinion.

Ouch. Tough spot, I guess the teacher just forced some homework at your plate too!

j.doe, I am not certain if this is hate per se. Ignorance can breed hate, but is not necessarily hate to start with. But I agree that some issues should stay out of the classroom and probably be the responsibility of the parents.

Seawitch, I too think that you should have a word with the principal, but probably with a non confrontational attitude. At least to begin with.

As for educating tolerance and acceptance, I believe that this is something that takes place since the beginning of parenthood, in every day and every interaction. Best of luck in the next few days!

K.

I await the day a Greek teacher tells my daughter that all Americans are killers.

It happened to an older American friend of mine in the late 1960s. A teacher made his young daughter cry by telling her that she should be ashamed to be part American.

In his case, it occurred during the Junta, and his neighbor was a Greek military General, and amazingly, the teacher apologized.

My daughter will be armed with the answers to counter the nonsense they teach in Greek schools.

Or I just may send her to one of the American/British schools in Athens and save us the headaches.

I agree, you should take this up with the school. Good grief it's hard. I also worry about the vast majority of the kids hearing that rubbish who do not have parents who talk to them about these issues or whose parents would agree with the teacher anyway.

It's so hard sometimes... I know. We are trying to bring up caring, responsible thinking children, and it's not being made any easier by the "education" they are getting.

I was justing watching a clinical psychiatrist (I can't remember his name but it said that he works at the Metropolitan clinic in Athens) speaking on Alter channel, saying exactly the same thing. That the super mom, who works hard and tries her best with the kids is responsible for homosexuality!!

He then went on to blame,"violent" mums, "depressed" mums, and so on and so forth. To listen to this guy you'd think that all the ills of the world were caused by women.

That teacher is a bit out of order to say those things.
You can't preach against homosexuals, just against homosexuality
Like the book says, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Scruffy American, your comment "My daughter will be armed with the answers to counter the nonsense they teach in Greek schools" has the same attitude as that teacher's comment on homosexuality. A generalisation, a belief that they teach crap in Greek schools as a general rule. Might I point out that education and culture levels are a lot higher in Greece than in the US? Just because a homophobe happens to have a teaching position, that does not mean that Greek schools teach crap as a rule.

And please do not use the history reference books in Greece as an example, because every country has allowed ample 'interpretation' of history as they see fit.

Your comment is as unfair and prejudiced as someone saying Americans are evil. You cannot fight one injustice with another injustice.

K.

My comment on Greek Schools and the crap they shovel was not based solely on my observations from my Greek niece and nephew but also from the views of many Greek-Americans who have studied in both countries. If memorizing useless information is your idea of a quality education, then I won't argue with you and will leave you to your bliss.

Additionally, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve with you. If however, in America, a teacher made a slur against a student's national origin, race etc, the teacher would be disciplined at a minimum. That's the difference...

In Greece, all we can do is blog about it. I don't believe it's very easy to really get a teacher into hot water here. If so, then inform me because I'd like to learn how.

Although I grew up in Greece, I have been living in the UK since I was 17.5 years old and have achieved two university degrees. My brother is currently in Berkley, working and researching in the university. My girlfriend is a teacher. With this, I can assume I have some degree of knowledge of education. Bear in mind I was not comparing university education (it sucks in Greece, mostly because of the system and the establishment of permanent professors).

How fair would it be if I said that going to school in the US is dangerous, since the kids have to pass through metal detectors to minimise the risk of knife attacks. What do I care about a racial slur, if my kid is killed in the playground? Are you saying this is not a major issue in the US?

I do not mean to oppose just for the hell of it. My objection is that if you sum up the education in Greece as crap because of some aspects, is this not the same as that teacher summing up a nation (or homosexuals) because of his own personal views?

Now, regarding memorising useless information, you have a valid point here, but it is also true that a lot of that information stays in a person's head for a long time, even if it seemed useless at the time. Might not be the best way, agreed, but at least kids get an 'education' in school, not carpentry lessons. School is meant to make you a better individual, to educate you, not just prepare you for a job.

K.

I'm really shocked. And I didn't anything could shock me anymore.

I really wish teachers would keep their traps shut about subjects about which they have zero knowledge. These sorts of "lessons" are the responsibility of parents, not teachers, and I would be absolutely furious.

Geez. I just can't believe it.

From the stories I've seen and heard, at least at the college/university level, it's very hard to get a teacher fired, though, depending on the trangression, disciplining is presumably easier.

Granted, you did give specif context for disciplining teachers in the US, but, over here in the states, some perceptions are both that teachers are underpaid, but also that they are sometimes over protected, a claim often with blame placed on teachers' unions. The overall image of teachers is mixed, as too is the appropriateness of their punishments.

Actually, based on many scientific studies the teacher does have a point. Homosexuals do tend to have higher anxiety levels, depression and lower self esteem than heterosexuals. And this is not because of ostracism from mainstream society but from the outcome of their sexual orientation.

A teacher is there to teach many things including morals, reading, writing, math and science. Therefore, maybe he should say, "Yes, Georgaki, they tend to be unhealthier, but that does not mean you should not disrespect them".

Kostas,

I suppose it's all relative. In the nice suburb of Athens I live in, I've heard of purse snatching from motorcyclists, gang-style graffiti, cars stolen from our parking lot, and even once a knife wielding crazy trying to take over a mental hospital front desk. And think, this from a nice part of Athens.

By comparison, from the beautiful city of Newport Beach California (Where the TV show OC is based) from which I am from (Comparable to where I live in Greece now), I've never noticed any of this type of crime, and in fact have never been a victim of crime there.

However, in Greece, we had our window smashed in while we were in the car, and our briefcase stolen right from us.

So, for me personally, I take more precautions here in Greece than I ever did in Sunny Southern California, but again, I stress it's only based on my experiences.

The media in the states tends to scare people into thinking that all of America is dangerously reeking of crime, but in reality there are certain pockets of crime that the regular folk just don't encounter.

zardoz says :

dear SEAWITCH,,

I THINK YOU CHOSE THE WISE ROAD
WITH YOUR LITTLE ONE,,PATIENCE
AND KEEP ON ,,SPEAKING
ONLY THRU DIALOGUE WILL THE MIND
OF YOUNG ONE'S,
COME TO WORK BETTER,,

ITS NICE HE DOESNT READ BLOGS ,,YET
OR WITH THE COMMENTS ,, ON THIS
SUBJECT ,,OUR CHILDREN ,WOULD BE
IN GREATER TROUBLE,,ON HOW TO
THINK OUT SITUATIONS..........



OH SCRUFFY....
....."DIP BEFORE ENGAGING"



========ZARDOZ===========

ellas...I think I need to have a talk with them too and it wouldn't be the first time. A gym teacher who punishes kids by taking away their gym lessons. An english teacher who marks correct answers wrong because that's what her book says. A caretaker who was arrested 2 months ago on paedophilia charges and now a teacher who instructs kids to prevent homosexuality. Somehow, I think the problems this school has can't be dealt with by just talking to the principal. I'll see what he has to say about it all anyway next week.

j.doe...I think the teacher was just looking for a segue to launch into an anti-homosexual sermon and the kids' story was his excuse.

seal...It's a public school and it won't be the first time I've had to make a visit to talk to them about curriculum matters. I probably won't get anywhere but I can't just shut up about it either. The weird thing is, the teacher has also taught them things like the importance of hard work and not expecting their parents to do everything for them. And how to be accepting of kids with disabilities and then he comes up with something preposterous like his homosexuality reform lesson.

kostas...At least one good thing came of it...my son and I had a long discussion about the issue and I'm pleased to say that he's not as hell bent today on reforming homosexuals since I told him that one of our friends whom he likes very much is a homosexual. He didn't know that and then he changed his tune somewhat and agreed that not all homosexuals need to be changed. Hopefully, by this time next week, he'll have given up altogether on his homosexual prevention plans. LOL

scruffy...Whatever school you decide to send your child to...private or public...you just have to make sure you don't leave his/her education entirely in the hands of the teachers.

diva...I related this experience to a friend of mine who's a teacher in Agia Paraskevi and although she was upset to hear about it, she was not surprised. One of the teachers in her school called one of her students (13 years old) a 'pousti'-faggot. Such a shame...children whose spirits are crushed by the thoughtless and nasty remarks by a teacher.
Although my son has had his share of misguided teachers, he's also had the best teacher I've ever encountered--both in my own education and his--here in Greece. Kyria Olga loved her job, loved the kids and it showed in her classroom. My next post will be dedicated to her.

teacher...I've heard that line soooooooo many times by supposed 'experts' too. Mothers and rarely ever, fathers, are to blame for not being home and working, being home and mollycoddling kids and not working, not cooking enough, cooking too much, blah blah blah. If you listen to them long enough, it's a wonder any woman even gets pregnant these days. LOL

jay...He's totally out of order. It's not his place to decide what's a sin and what isn't. I don't send my son to a Bible study class...I send him to public school. I would be just as upset if he instructed the kids that they needed to convert Catholics to Orthodoxy.

kostas...I agree Kostas. Not all schools teach crap. And not all teachers are homophobes or anti-americans. It's just that I've never experienced remarks like the ones I'm hearing in my son's classrooms in all my years of public education.
As for the quality of Greek education, you might want to read Kathimerini's front page article on the subject. It is failing children...with or without teachers' personal opinions.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100005_27/05/2006_70215

mel...I thought I would stop being shocked after the first time a teacher told my something totally inappropriate and irrelevant to his schoolwork but here I am...6 years later and I'm still being shocked. And yes, I agree, these kinds of 'lessons' are the responsibility of the parents.

eff...I wouldn't be looking to get this teacher fired because for the past two years he's been teaching my son, he's done a lot of good things too. I'd just like to see if he keep these kinds of opinions to himself.

hermes...I don't know the statistics on the happiness and unhappiness of homosexuals or heterosexuals so I can't comment on it. I just know that I don't want my son to be taught that he has the duty to try to reform them. What if he had told the kids that it was their job to prevent people from getting married because statistics prove that 50% or more of married couples are unhappy and get divorced?

zardoz...yes, I think just having a dialogue with kids about subjects such as this one is so important. I hope he never stops talking to me and telling me his own opinions. If that ever happens, I would be a very unhappy Mom. We have our little arguments because he's even more stubborn than me but at least he still wants to tell me things that go on his world. And I'm so grateful that he does.

ethno...Type in the word "Crusades" in a google search and you'll come up with millions of pages and equally divided as to whether or not they were justified.
Many wars have been waged with so-called 'good intentions' only to have degenerated into one long series of atrocities fueled by propaganda by the greedy, the self-serving and the pious.

And yes, this kind of thing doesn't only happen in Greece. A daycare owner back in Canada was reprimanded for telling kids that by celebrating Halloween they'd go to hell along with all the native Indians who didn't believe in God!

It was recently fashionable to jump on the Crusades as a sign of Christian agression versus the Islamic world but this viewpoint betrays a poor and narrow reading of history. The Middle East was Christian a long time before it was Islamic until the Muslims, under the banner of Muhammad, went on a Crusade themselves and overtook the Middle East, Northern Africa and the Iberian Peninsula and Islamicised much of the population. They also harried us, the Byzantine Greeks, time and time again reaching the walls of Constantinople on many occasions and took thousands of Romaioi as slaves. The Christian crusades were driven by a combination of many factors but one of them was the freeing of the subjugated native Arabic, Syrian and Egyptian Christian population that had remained in the Middle East. These people remain today. Recently in Egypt a few more Copts were murdered. A while later, another Crusade, this time by the Seljuk and Ottoman armies and their gazis, was implemented which resulted in the occupation of Romania (or better known today as Byzantium).

On the other matter, Seawitch, I agree with you. His duty should not be to reform them. However, when I eventually have children then I'd ask my son's teacher to teach him the natural order and its beauty. However, as in nature, there are defects and due to our compassionate n nature we cannot treat them unfairly.

Ethno,

Yes, in Newport they do have a very pro-active police force. They don't necessarily stop people without a reason of course. But, yes, I'll say that some demographics there are being stopped more than others. One case in point I remember a few years back during a visit.. I was in my mom's (NICE CAR) and we were speeding and at the last second, I noticed a motorcycle cop. He did not budge...

Then after coming back from a take out place, I carefully drove back by this place in the road towards home and noticed this same cop had a beat up old pickup truck pulled over. Now, I didn't see who he had pulled over but certainly the beat up pickup truck was more of a target than my mom's Lincoln...

I don't agree with that type of profiling but then again, what can I do. I'm only one Scruffy American in a sea of many Americans.

By the way, I love Newport but my wife is one of the many Greeks who doesn't like to live anywhere but Greece, so I am trapped here in ELLADA. But, remember, there are worse places to be.... :)

Reading the comments to this post has been like a rollercoaster ride: I keep switching between felling glad that there are so many sensible people out there, to sad that there are still so many misguided people out there. Well, we do all have the right to our opinions, but I have to agree with Zardoz that it's a good thing your son doesn't read blogs yet!
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that my brothers experienced many similar attacks on their impressionable minds during their Greek public schooling - from being told the Turks were going to come and cut of all the womens' breasts to all kinds of homophobic garbage. Actually I'm not sure whether the homophobic attitudes came from the teachers, or from fellow students and the general atmosphere in a small village. But I almost laughed (or cried?) reading your comment cause it reminded me so much of a conversation we once had round the lunch table - where my brothers' budding homophobia was suddenly revealed in a comment made by them (something along the lines of gay men being disgusting) to our great shock. I think I may have written about this before, but anyway, the way it went was similar to what you described. We all tried reasoning with them, to no avail. Finally, I started asking them about all the people we knew, that my brothers had grown up around and loved, who were gay. At first they were shocked, because they hadn't realised all these people were homosexuals, but finally, after the denial had worn off, they had to admit maybe it wasn't so bad after all. So I guess you're on the right track.
Now that they're grown up, I haven't actually asked them what their attitudes are (hmmm mental note) but they have voluntarily sought out gay friends to hang out with so I suppose they're over it. Generally, it's very difficult to adjust, coming from super-politically correct and sensitive Canada, to the general Greek attitude which - while not openly hostile or hateful - certainly assumes that there is something wrong or disgusting about gay men. I guess we can only hope that this, too will slowly change.
(And if anyone doesn't believe me about Canadian and Qubecois attitudes vs Greek and even US ones, check out these pages: How to tell if you're Canadian(under the 'Over there first, twice' section) How to tell if you're from Quebec (under the 'A distinct society' section) Are you Greek? (under the 'We invented' section) and How to tell if you're American (under the 'Everybody knows that' section). They're generally an interesting read, though I think the Greek one especially could be expanded on!

Kassandra, there are a host of logical inconsistencies in your argument. But the main one is that you believe gay people should not be typcasted with unfair portrayals and people should change their negative attitude to them.

However, you direct people to links that do exactly the same thing.

"eff...I wouldn't be looking to get this teacher fired because for the past two years he's been teaching my son, he's done a lot of good things too. I'd just like to see if he keep these kinds of opinions to himself."

Ok. But
I was mainly commenting to Scruffy. Sorry.

Hermes:
a.) the links typecast the attitudes of people living in said countries towards gays, not gays themselves. Yes, they are generalizing, which is not normally something I'd advocate, but quite frankly I found them amusing and have just been looking for an excuse to share them with the world. Hopefully somebody else found them funny, too.
b.) Yet again, I am forced to ask, what argument? You're an argumentative lot who hang round this page! Believe me, you'll know when I'm arguing! I was sharing a personal anecdote in order to offer Seawitch some solidarity and support, or something along those lines, and figured she might have had difficulties similar to mine adapting to Greek attitudes as we are both Canadian. I did not state whether I think those feelings are correct or incorrect - they are just attitudes I have as a result of my cultural upbringing.
c.) However, I will now say that if you singled me out for a reply because you suspected you were one of the people who made me sad, you would be right. And normally I would in fact love to argue with you all day, except that I am so tired of arguing, and haven't got time for it, and also this is not my or your blog and we would be taking this post and comments way off topic - which I suspect is exactly what you are hoping to do - so I will refrain.

"And normally I would in fact love to argue with you all day, except that I am so tired of arguing, and haven't got time for it, and also this is not my or your blog and we would be taking this post and comments way off topic - which I suspect is exactly what you are hoping to do - so I will refrain"

Kassandra, well said.

Your son makes excellent sense. Homosexuals have higher levels of physical and mental disease than heterosexuals. Parents are justified not to want their children to become homosexuals, and they should at least make an effort in that direction. Of course it's often too late by the time parents realize their children have such a tendency.

Scruffy,

I think you should have apologized for generalizing like that. Although some of your comments after the first post make sense, this generalization does not.

The Greek education system does have many problems, however you cannot say it's crap because of some isolated incidents. For example, count how many Greeks study in the top universities of your country, the UK, etc (country of 10M population). I did myself and I can list close friends of mine in all Ivy League, Oxford, Cambridge etc. Do you think they did not have the right preparation in their high school?

Should I also generalize and say that the majority of Americans cannot point Iraq on a map, therefore their schools are crap? Or will you do that before me? :)

Kassandra, what I meant was the links typecast the attitude of the people in those countries towards gays. I believe you are being unfair to the people in those countries. Anecdotally, I have never found Greeks to be rude to homosexuals. Maybe, I have been fortunate.

Sealr,

Sometimes generalizations are based in fact. They have to start from somewhere. My generalization that Greek schools sling crap was based on stories heard from many folks all over the country, not just in the poor areas.

And of course, my Greek-American friends.

In the states, I'm sure we have horrible schools in some areas, but certainly not in the wealthier areas.

Without recourse or remedy available, people vent to feel better. That's what I did...

And, now for a "tangent alert". Have you ever noticed that in Greece, Whether you are in pretty Kiffisia, Vouliagmeni or slummy Aghia Varvara, or porty Pireaus, you see litter all over the country. My point is it's just not in the poor areas.

By contrast, in the U.S.A., in the wealthier areas you do not see the same litter problem. Now, I agree in Brooklyn I noticed quite a bit of litter, but certainly not in the Upper East side..

Can anyone pull a theory on this one?

And finally, I'll say Sorry to you SEALR since you polite enough to ask.

Scruffy is saying American schools in poor areas are crap but in good areas are good. Greek schools are crap everywhere. Do you seriously think that Greeks make it into the top universities in the world because they are so smart and overcome the crap they are taught?

I didn't notice litter in the nice areas of Greece. If you are right, maybe the municipalities are corrupt and are not picking it up? Or maybe there is more equal income distribution in Greece since in the US there is such a huge different between crap and nice areas?

As for apologizing I only meant that instead of admitting you said something that didn't make much sense you go on about so many irrelevant topics to prove something to the rest of the readers. I know you will rush to say this is not the case bla bla bla...maybe I'll check this blog again soon to see.

And before you rush to say that I dislike the US, I actually like it, proof that I've stayed here for over 2 years so far!

Not all Greeks make it into the good Universities. Some with money do, but many languish here in TEI and other lesser schools.

By the way, using your logic, I'm sure American schools must be the best because I'm sure there are more Americans in Good US universities than the Greeks.

Anyways, we can go on forever, but you are boring the "crap" out of me so I'll just end it here and move on or as the locals here like to put it "SAY-COLA"

I'm sure there are more, there are 30 times as many of them and it's easier for them to stay and study in their own country!

Anyway at least I'm happy my school did a good job with me overall and I am sure that overall despite it's problems Greek education is better than US education (for students under the age of 18 of course!).

COLA! I said it, although I'm not sure what this is about...

There are times I really hate the people I come from