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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 

Greeks, Immigrants and Όχι Day

Honouring Greece's "Oxi" With a "Nai" for Immigrants.

On the 28th of October, Greeks will celebrate "Όχι Day". This national holiday commemorates Greece's valiant and unequivocal "no" (όχι) response to Benito Mussolini's threat to invade and occupy Greece in World War II. To honour the thousands of Greeks who died fighting the Italian invasion, Greek schoolchildren march in parades across the country.

Traditionally, the student with the highest marks in each school is awarded the distinction of becoming the flagbearer, leading the rest of his or her classmates in the parade. Unfortunately, this privilege has been open to attack in the past few years as some immigrant children have been receiving the highest grades in their schools. Classmates and parents alike question their 'Greekness' and demand that only a Greek should have the right to carry the Greek flag.

In several incidents, they've gone so far as to forbid their children to march along side them in the parades--some parents even booing and spitting on the child as they marched. Because of the resentment and outright fury exhibited by some schools' parents and classmates, immigrant children succumbed to the pressure and opted out of the parade altogether.

Although many government officials, school principals and state ministers have condemned the public outcry, many Greeks are still divided on the issue and the whole debate begins anew every year.

Prior to 2000, only Greek citizens were eligible to become a flagbearer. However, in 2000, a Presidential Decree signed into effect by the former education minister, Petros Efthymiou, specifically states that any immigrant child attending a Greek public school for two years would be allowed to carry the Greek flag in parades.

Like many European countries, Greece is trying to adapt to the sudden influx of immigrants into a previously homogenous society. If Greece does not afford immigrants the chance to integrate and adopt a more tolerant attitude then the controversy surrounding the flag will only fuel further anti-immigrant sentiment ultimately dividing this country. It is most unfortunate that children whose only 'crime' was to be exemplary students, should be caught in the middle of it

Is someone Greek solely by virtue of where he was born or could it also entail a genuine pride, love and devotion to the country exemplified by commitment and determination to assimilate into Greek society?

I am inclined to agree with famed Greek orator Isocrates when he said "One is not a Greek by right of birth but by right of Greek education".

That quote can be a bit of a curse these days, eh? Lol

Surprisingly, I can actually see both sides of this debate. I would assume that having at least one Greek parent isn't an issue in this matter. For the immigrant children, though, I can see how Greeks might see them carrying the flag as an affront. I suppose it is one thing if an immigrant family is just here temporarily, or if they intend to become "Greeks". I guess then that the two year rule makes sense in that regard.

The way I am, if I had a child who wasn't Greek (ie. wasn't born to a Greek parent) I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable letting him or her carry the flag on this type of national holiday. I'd defer to the Greeks on this one, because it was their battle, their fight, and I'd want their descendants to bear the flag. But that is just me.

All that being said, I don't think it is right that it had to be this type of debate, spitting on children, etc. type of thing. That is just ignominy on everyone, for a holiday that Greeks should be proud of, not make asses of themselves.

I see both sides of the debate as well since I first became aware of the controversy back in 2000 when the first immigrants carried the flag. Although I do understand the Greek position on this debate, I also know that there is no escape from the fact that immigrants are in Greece and increasing in numbers as the EU expands its borders. We cannot go back in time and therefore, I believe that the only way for foreigners to assimilate is to allow them to partake in every aspect of greek life...from education to jobs to parades. When Odhise Qena received the honour to carry the Greek flag twice, many people objected. Their reaction, no doubt, made him realize that he has no future in Greece and that probably influenced his decision to accept a full scholarship at Boston University instead of continuing his studies within Greece. Greece needs more stellar students whether they are Greek by birth or not.

And I must admit, I am somewhat biased in my stance on this issue. My son is Canadian by birth but you can't tell him he's not Greek. He feels it in his heart and identifies strongly with Greek culture and history. To deny him the right to 'be Greek' would crush him since he has absolutely no affinity for Canada whatsoever.

the issue came up with an Albanian kid. the problem is that oxi day celebrates the stand against the italian fascist invasion, which the Albanians facilitated (including organized Albanian minority groups in Greece who helped the Italan and German fascists during the rather cruel and traumatic occupation)

It was wrong to impeed the kid from carrying the falg, but not exactly a scandal. It did not come after all from xenophobia, prejudice against foriegners or "immigrants" buy reaction to the irony of it being an Albanian (who still held Albanian citizenship) for that particular anniversary.

"Immigration" in Southeast Europe is no like immigration to the US. most of the "immigrants" are in fact guest workers, many intend to return to their home coutnries, many do and leave have their kids in school there gtting a much better education than Albania or Bulgaria.

In the US several localities would not even allow these kids into the public schools!

I think I'm kinda singing from the same song sheet when it comes to this issue. I can see the issue from both sides but it just angers me beyond belief when it gets out of hand. If the top student wins the honor to carry the flag and they want to take that honor then so be it. If your a Greek parent and you see it from a different point of view then thats fine too. When it's not fine is when kids are encouraged to turn upon their fellow class mate and even go as far as staging sit ins at the school. What should have happened is that no-one carried the flag. The class should have not marched.

The purpose of the march each year is not only to honor the brave heros who died fighting and basically give thanks to their sacrifise. Thanks to those people, we live today in a free and democratic Greece.

A free democratic Greece that should treat people as equals.

October 28th makes me proud of my nationality and my country. It doesn't make me feel proud however of some (and please remember people it's a very small minority) of my fellow Greeks who boo and spit and hate at children. I think they need to remember what όχι day is all about and get with the program.

OK well, as ever I have to put in my 2 pence worth. I am wary of flag waving of any kind. I am one of those people who wholeheartedly cheered on Greece in the European cup (and was moved to tears when they won) while my english friends slated them for getting there. Nationality is quite low down on my list of who I am.
I like England, it has some good things about it but my heart has never swelled with pride over it.
Maybe I'm odd like that. I don't feel rootless because of this. My cultural roots are in England and in Jamaica but I don't feel I am culturally fixed. I now kiss people on both cheeks (not in my upbringing but has become part of me) What I am trying to say is that, while I understand that people like these displays of Nationalism, I do not have that need. What I loved during the Olympics was seeing people swapping their flags,t-shirts and paraphenalia with people from other countries. Like I said maybe I'm odd but I just had to comment.
As an endnote. I think using children in this heated and sometimes mean debate is inexcusable.

Anonymous is incorrect. In the U.S., the Supreme Court has ruled it unconstitutional to deny undocumented minors access to public schools. Schools are not allowed to ask about a family's immigration status.

It is the inalienable right of Greeks to be the flag bearers during patriotic marches.

An immigrant school goer should have the common sense to understand and respect this.

Greece does not and does not need to follow the other european nations into their genetic funeral march.

Greece is a homogeneeous nation, foreigners are welcome to stay as long as they are conscious of their "guest"status.
Greece is a small country with limited natural resources and territorial space and greeks themselves are hard pressed to live within its confines without having to compound the living space problem with an influx of unwanted barbarians.

Self flagellation and the glorification of the Barbarians in our midst is not tolerance but a suicidal virus.

Wow, believe it or not, but Gyge is not me, however I do like how he/she thinks.

Just a suggestion, Europe should not be using the example of the US or Canada as a template for immigration issues. Both these countries have failed and will continue to falter in the upcoming decades due to their blindness and slave-ish mentality towards the multi-culti dogma.

Seawitch, your child has a Greek father, no? He's Greek then and no one should say otherwise.

"influx of unwanted barbarians."

Excuse me while I choke on my tea.

gyge,You may not like us and not want us to carry your flag but calling us barbarians?

That is completely unacceptable. It also does nothing for your argument.

Diva...Winston Churchill said "Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks”. Those men and women were heroes to me as well and even though I have never owned a flag, I do attend the parades commemorating them. I may not be Greek but I am moved and humbled by the sacrifices they made and therefore, I feel it's the very least I can do.

Gyge...I wonder what you think of the thousands of Greeks who emigrated abroad? Are they barbarians too just because they aren't ethnic Americans/Canadians/British/Australian? Or is the word barbarian used only to describe people like Diva and me in Greece?

Ethno...I'm just curious how you can think immigrants are such a drain on a country when you are the son of immigrants? From what you've mentioned in other posts, your parents sound like wonderful people. I would hate to think that people thought of them the way you and gyge think of other immigrants. Even though we don't always agree, it's obvious that you're quite literate. I would immediately dismiss any American telling me that you and your family are barbarians just because you're of immigrant stock.

"Hence we will not say that Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like Greeks”

Not that I want to rain on your parade (pun intended), but this phrase of Winston Churchill has been disputed on numerous occasions. The new version of the story basically says the phrase was invented in the later years to enforce Greek pride in primary and secondary Greek schools. If you run a google search with the phrase, you will only get four pages with results mostly from Greek sites, the majority of which are sport ones and featured this phrase after the Euro 2004 championship (Google will show you 7 pages on the first page, but they are in fact 4. Google does that often.). Not exactly my version of objectivity in history :P Too bad Chirchill can't tell us his own side of the story anymore.

Steel...you could very well be right since I wasn't around to hear him say it but I did google the search query "greece fought like heroes + winston churchill" and 64,700 pages came up. Of course, not all of them relate to the quote but several sites such as: reference.com, answers.com and michigan.gov all attribute the quote to him. Considering what the Greeks did to repel the Italian invasion, it doesn't matter to me if the quote is Churchill's or not. It's still an accurate statement as far as I'm concerned. (BTW, I really appreciate your posts...I enjoy reading them.)

Influx of unwanted barbarians? These are the people doing the jobs the Greeks don't want to do, right? They are here because they can find work here - work offered to them by Greeks. Often at lower wages than these Greeks would have to pay their fellow Greeks for doing the same job. Fire at will, ethnocentrist.

While I, too, can see both sides, I can also see (even if I'm the only one to see it) that Oxi Day is slowly going the same way as Poppy Day is in the UK. The older kids in the parade often look bored, or even embarrased. And that, I think, is a shame.

As for foreign kids carrying the flag, well, if they intend to become Greek (keep firing, EC) I don't see a problem.

SeaWitch,

I appreciate the kind words about my parents. They are very decent people and have raised three successful and caring people. They have been discriminated against when they first arrived in the US, however they sucked it up and moved ahead. They knew they were guests initially and wanted to prove they were worth more than what they were told they were and wanted to fit in. Despite my, at times, quite caustic nature, I am a very caring individual and care not only for family but extended family as well, which includes ethnicity. That's what ethnicity is in reality, an extension of family taken to the outer boundaries of kinship. That is why I have such a strong opinion about this topic.

Immigration is a tricky situation. When done correctly and monitored strictly, it allows a group entering another country to not only improve their domestic situation but also the host country as well. That is what the basis of immigration was prior to 1965 or there about for most of western countries. That is not what is happening today. Today, we have millions of illegals entering the US from the southern border. We have untold hundreds of thousands entering Canada and Europe. The Mexicans provide many negative effects such as depressing wages, displacing citizens from honest work, putting a drain on society due to costs associated with social services, health care, education, language and cultural divisions, increasing costs associated with law enforcement, sending money back home to Mexico thereby not helping the economies of local and state areas, decrease property values due to communities where you find 20 to 30 men living in one home, offering no loyalty to the country that provides income for them, and pay no taxes to help finance the cost of them being in the US. Just to name a few.

Immigration proponents, both left and right on the political spectrum, have their reasons to allow not only legal but illegal immigration to continue at this horrid pace. The left, as usual, panders to the new immigrants and offers a whole slew of social perks and incentives. The right enjoys the slave labor wages and increased bottom lines for medium to large sized companies that these laborers provide. Both are for extremely selfish reasons and none are for the citizens of the country or the immigrants themselves. When you allow immigrants to enter in massive quantities, the likelihood of assimilation becomes inversely proportional to the rate allowed in; therefore when millions upon millions of Mexicans enter per year, we will have "New" Mexico within the US and not the New Mexico state already in existence. We get social upheaval because Americans expect new people to become American and learn English. Always has been the way, but no longer. The same can be said of Canada where there wasn’t even a slow down of immigration after the 9/11 attacks and it was discovered that the terrorists waltzed across the northern border. It has INCREASED and Paul Martin wants to increase it even further despite the fact that many new immigrants simply sit on welfare for at least several years after entering the country and bring over all their families, including their aged relatives with multiple health problems and no chance whatsoever to become productive members of society and payback what they already have taken out of the system. Same for the UK, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Germany, Spain, Italy, even Greece etc.

Another aspect of immigration is the delusion that in shores up the tax base and provides new blood to support the aging population because we Europeans do not produce enough children to replace ourselves. First, this is wrong because most either do not provide enough tax income to truly help or work illegally. Second, in welfare states, mass immigration is a net drain on society financially. Third, mass immigration actually DEPRESSES the birthrate of the native population due to increasing costs of necessities, luxuries, and housing. Natives decide to have fewer children as a result of these increased costs and increased taxes to support the social net. Fourth, mass immigration does not allow the new immigrants to assimilate and accept the ideals of the host country where these social nets are important. Will 60-70 million Mexicans want to support aging Blacks and Whites? Will Muslims want to support aging Europeans? Japan is a prime example of a western style nation that has a decreasing birthrate. Their solution is NOT massive immigration from other distant peoples to help out. They are automating many services using technology and robotics. They want to keep Japan for the Japanese and despite a decreasing total population, which some say may shrink to the level of 1900, they will keep their country, culture, and race intact.

Why are western peoples the ones that are force fed this guilt and obligation that we MUST accept all sorts of immigrants in order to somehow “survive”? Who’s surviving? Certainly not the culture of these countries when you get 20, 30, 50% of the new people completely foreign from the native population. What do Moroccans know of Dutch culture? Turks of Swedish culture? Africans of French culture? Mexicans of American culture? Seriously, who benefits from all this “humanitarianism” and mass immigration? Not the people, for sure. The elites and super wealthy do, though they do not have to worry about intermingling with commoners and their plight, now do they? Are thousands of years of culture and history worth this? To me it is not though that is what is being fed to us on a daily basis and if one even dares to speak up, then intolerant, xenophobe, and racist is hurled at them. Really? Who says? A bunch of self serving, selfish, hypocritical, lying elites that will never be affected by the chaos they are in the midst of producing?

I find it absurd that we must do this, though other countries have no qualms of setting strict racial lines on immigration. China, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Japan all have racial legislation and will not allow anyone to immigrate unless they are from the respective countries and can prove it. In Israel’s case, genetic testing is done. In China and India’s case they will not entertain anyone foreign coming in and they can export a mere fraction of their population and inundate entire countries without causing a ripple to their own countries. This is pure madness on our parts. If we are destined to die out as a people, then we must die out on our terms which are evidently due to sloth, decadence, and debauchery. Being forced out of our own countries is not one of the possibilities in my mind. I do not need an overabundance of immigrants so I can get my grass cut for $15 instead of $30, or have my house worth 2 or 3 times more due to artificial demand. I’d rather have less so that my children can grow up in a society that is safe, relatively homogenous, and protective of its own instead of more money and more problems with people I have nothing in common with.

These are the people doing the jobs the Greeks don't want to do, right? They are here because they can find work here - work offered to them by Greeks. Often at lower wages than these Greeks would have to pay their fellow Greeks for doing the same job. Fire at will, ethnocentrist.

Mike, since when have you become such a mouthpiece for the establishment and their cacophony of lies? If the choice is between starvation and doing "immigrant" work, guess which choice Greeks will make? That goes the same for Americans, Canadians etc. This is a blatant lie that feeds on the greed and stupidity of people.

"Wow, believe it or not, but Gyge is not me, however I do like how he/she thinks."

I take it then, ethnocentrist, as you did not comment on the barbarian remark, that you agree with that too?

The thousands of Greeks that emigrated to USA, thousands of Poles, Germans, Italians; they emigrated because they were welcomed into those new lands, welcomed for their enterprise and industriuosness to build and develop the land, the country.

Those emigrants were not "smuggled" in, they arrived with proper documentation and not in container ships, trucks, or leaky boats sailing the waters , Those emigrants were not illegals hiding under the umbrella of human rights organizations or United Nations pseudo refugees invader programes. When they landed in the new countries they did not rely on "relief"societies/agencies to house them, feed them ,medicate them and other creature amenities.

And after a while if they did not make it in the new land they returned to their countries of origin.



They were a pioneering breed, and the land needed people, needed settlers, needed to populate empty spaces, needed to build a nation and a country.

There is no land in Hellas, there is no free space waiting to be po opulated,and least and last by barbarians, Greece is already a nation state for Greeks, with thousands year of history , Greece is not a Corporate entity or a nation waiting to be build.

There lies the difference between those emigrants and the new parasitic invaders who land in mass in Greece or anywhere else in Europe, paperless and expecting to be housed in 5 star reception centers, be given medication ,be financially supported,be given Jobs ( Greeks and Greek youth are unemployed and underployed in good measure)encouraged to bring in their family members ( to join the queue of recipients of state subsidies, create slum areas) and make outrageous demands about "their" rights being violated. What rights ? The poor Greek worker taxed to the bone marrow must pay for these unwelcome intruders and tolerate the ungrateful litany of their perceived woes.

The emigrants of the past build those new countries, the invaders or barbarians of today they have nothing to build in Greece but to destroy the little that there is.

gyge, In fact most of the "babarians" you ranted about in your previous post here are LEGAL.
What you are on about is illegal immigration. As I have said before illegal immigration needs to be addressed by the individual countries and laws need to be drawn up BUT if the conditions of detention are inhumane and the treatment of immigrants endangers lives, that is an issue of HUMAN RIGHTS and everyone is entitled to those. The vast majority of immigrants here behave in exactly the same way as the Greeks who went to America. They work, pay taxes, they contribute to the society they live in. Undocumented migrants are NOT demanding 5 star detention centres. They are asking not to be put in containers like cattle. They are asking for access to water, food and the chance to become legal or seek assylum here.
If Greece really does not want to have people trying to start a new life here, it should get out of Europe, make laws that allow the authorities to behave any way they want to and not reap the economic and social benefits of being in the international community if it chooses to act against its laws.

Immigration is an issue that should be decided by individual nations.If we speak of Democracy and democratic traditions ,then let's practice them. Unfortunately nations in Europe today can not be considered sovereigns. They are governed and ruled by the EU bureacrocay. This bureacracy is in its nature antinational and has an utter disregard for the electorate. Immigration en masse,an extreme position, legal or illegal is inimical to the indigenous and native peoples. When this immigration is of a different hue colour, culture and cosmovision the issue can become explosive, since it is no longer an immigration but rather a colonization enterprise undertaken by unassimilable races. A peoples replacement plan.

I always wonder why immigration is not directed towards Africa,India,Japan, China, or thirld world countries ? These countries reject it nonchalantly, because their essence is national, it will be foolhardy to criticize their policies and labeled them as discriminatory.

Thirld world immigration is targeting the white nations of Europe. This is sinister, criminal, and no self respecting nation can permit this.

As far as Greece is concerned ,Mr Divas is right, Greece should get out of the EU and not allow to be dictated from ivory towers and thick carpeted offices in Brussels. As far as the largesse of the EU is concerned it is a mere illusion masterminded by master illusionists, the future generations will be in bondage for ever to repay this supposed largesse. This fact is never mentioned by the donor to the receipient.

I visited Greece in 1965, 1977, and 1980 ( the hand of Brussels was soft and its voice hardly audible then). It was a jewel of a country. I visited Greece again in 2003 and found that the jewel had lost its polish and shine and looked tarnished; pity and a thousand pity ( this is my humble opinion and only my impression)

Immigration and the wrong sort of immigration is equivocal. I hope the Greeks have the sanity to realize this and to appreciate the land their ancestors legated to them and ensure that it endures for posterity by not allowing themselves,lemming wise, to be engulfed by the chaotic storms building up in the race replacement program. Where no immigration or racial problem exists ,don't create one. It is simple as that.

As far as OXI day is concerned, it is a Hellenic day for the Hellenes. Hellenic blood was spilled to prevent the country from being invaded by Germans and Italians. A great disservice is rendered to the honour and memory of Hellenes who fell, in the snowy mountains of Albania,fighting to repel a mighty invader and thus save Hellas,if the frontiers of this venerable nation is flung open to ( quoting Gigge; she or he seems to speak from the chest and drill down the essentials ) Barbarians .

I wish the very best for Hellas in this new struggle to protect and ensure their survival and may the spirit of Oxi day inspire them in the future.

“Migrants are not a problem, they are the great advantage of our age,” said
Interior Minister, Prokopis Pavlopoulos, at a European immigration conference at Zappeion Hall in central Athens yesterday.

In today's eKathimerini

Pavloupulos seems to be a beacon of light and wisdom. Like the rest of his cabinet Pavlopoulos is a weather cock, a subject to prevailing winds, can not think for himself or is afraid of expressing himself. His understanding and conprehension of matters in general is limited and is reduced to make pronouncements based on second hand spurious data devoid of any scientific study . A perfect ventriloquist of the establishment, a propaganda mouthpiece. Otherwise he is an excellent old chap. I had coffee with him, a few years ago, at the Grand Bretagne hotel. He did not offer to pay. I must hasten to add, he was not a minister when we had our cafedaki.

I'm a little tired of all the pompous aphorisms I read here and everywhere. "Greece should get out of the EU", "Greece" in the same sentence as "sovereign nation", "white peoples" in the same sentence as "replacement plan" and more and more.

Open your god damn eyes and look at what Greece is today! LOOK AT IT! Do you really think it is a nation that deserves to go on historically and phylogenetically? Really??

Who works in modern Greece? Who aspires to become something better? Who helps this god forsaken country? No one. From the topmost politician to the lowest beggar, everyone either is someone's gimp-bitch (usually politicians enslaved to "other" interests, but also you and me kissing our boss' ass) or work, steal, pillage and burn (usually public property) to fill our mangy pockets. On top of that, deaths outnumber births, we all have 1.2 children per family and the only healthy, vibrant workforce seems to be immigrants or repatriated greeks. Why the hell are we complaining? Let's live out the rest of our days and go down like the Titanic. Now, if listening to patriotic marches makes it easier for us, that's fine. Go ahead and march. But don't deceive yourselves. If we don't change our tune and fast, we're done.

And I don't mean "our government" I mean you and me. Don't fucking cheat on your tax statement, don't place your vote depending on who will appoint your good for nothing dead beat nephew at a good spot in the public sector. Don't be rude, don't litter, don't seek 1001 ways to usurp, undermine, defame others. Take responsibility for your faults and be truthful and honorable. Too hard, huh. Well, see ya at the bottom of the Atlantic...

As for the issue at hand. No, immigrant children should not be allowed to carry the flag at parades. Why the hell would an Albanian want to carry the greek flag on a day commemorating the defeat of italians (and others...) in Albania and the re-capture of greek territories now under Albanian rule? Why would an american kid want to carry the flag on a day commemorating the greek revolution against the turks?

But, even assuming they want to (admirable!), it's not their place, I'm sorry to say. Let's give them a special award, scholarships, make it easy for them to get ahead in life. And if at one point they feel so greek that they want to get the citizenship, by all means! Give them the flag. But not before. It's an issue, that's not that important, but you see... it cannot be differently.

As for the "concerned parents" who boo and spit and curse? I would advise them to set these albanians as an example to their "kanakarides" (best word ever), their good for nothing, aspiring-to-be-a-bartender-or-a-famous-singer sons and daughters. I would advise them to explain to their children (through actions, not words) what is worth it in this life and what is not. But I am not getting my hopes up.

I'm sorry for the tone of this post, but I'm tired of grandstanding - my own included. We should be more concerned with our own faults, everything else will follow.

And a P.S.: As greeks, professional emmigrants I could say, we should not be throwing stones in our glass house. We of all people know the drama, the hope and the struggle of emmigration. Speaking against immigrants in Greece (and even more, abroad!) might just bring a rain of glass all around us. This is not to mean "let everyone in, unregulated", but it goes to the principle.

Enough, I said too much

Diva,

There is no need for name calling, though to answer your question, many anew immigrants are certainly savage in comparison and do not fit the civil norm that has been created by European man.

Gyge,

I continue to agree with what you say.

Thanos,

I wholeheartedly disagree with your defeatist attitude. NO, I will not go down with the Titanic because the Titanic is being eating away from the inside and the perception that is fed to the western world is that this is "the way of evolution" as you've said somewhere else before. NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! If we are to die out, then let all the Greeks starve a miserable death. We'll see how many will choose that f**king path.

Mikey my boy,

Start thinking for yourself.

There is no need to become agitated in this forum. Expressions are being aired and ideas are being tabled. Discuss the ideas and their merit and not the people representing them, the people come and go, the idea stays and it is taken up by other representatives, some of them may have verbal skills, others may not, others might lucubrate, again others may be brief and concise. Others may be given to hyperbole, yet others might betray other feelings, this are mere trappings of conveying an idea

I will refrain from making comments other than I am enjoying reading the postings and I tend to focus on the concepts or ideas and its substantiation and not on the writer or writers.

Let's hear more views, albeit controversial, in a harmonious and non discordant vein.

I think our brother Thanos might have had one too many glasses of ouzaki.

Go down like the Titanic ?

What would have happened if Leonidas had thought like that,or the fighters at Marathon or at Salamis ? Why do we have an Oxi day ? Precisely because we refused to go down like the Titanic.

Ethnocentrist and Gyge have said it all, there is little else I can add. Bravo Pedia, with spirits like yours there is hope in the future.

Plinio Centeno makes excellent points. People should reread his post. To be blunt, the current form of immigration in the western world is nothing more than race replacement, period. I've already mentioned the effects, both culturally and financially of this massive immigration set out to affect only European derived nations. We are witnessing a slow genocide in effect against the western world and the elites are the one propagating it. There is NO need for immigration. NONE.

Thanos, I apologize for my previous post directed at you, though I rabidly defend the content of it. You do make good points about the decadence of Greek youth and not so young, though things can change on a dime if necessary. Just how do you think these young Greeks get their ideas to be bouzouki players? How do you think many of the west get the idea that we NEED immigration? Does it not strike people as odd, this new "enlightened" ideology?

Thanks Manolis, maybe there is a future for me in politics. Definitely not in the US, but maybe a repatriated Greek. I'd set things straight in about 3 seconds. I'm serious about this and have given it a lot of thought. I'm old enough for this to be viable and Greece is still small enough that changes can occur quickly. What Europe needs is ONE country to stand up to this madness and reject it outright then the rest will fall in line like dominos because nearly all the people of Europe do NOT want this. Who'd a thunk Greece may the one. LOL

Still just a vision though.

"many anew immigrants are certainly savage in comparison and do not fit the civil norm that has been created by European man."

Could you please elaborate.

I believe you are talking about cultural differences which you percieve to be "savage"
I was brought up to believe
that spitting in public was the behaviour of inferior people. I admit I was quite shocked and disgusted to see people doing that here. But I would never stoop so low as to call them savage.

Oh Diva please! I will not sit idly by and allow you to judge Europeans by one standard while you ignore the atrocious behaviour of your people and cultures. The genocide that has gone on in Africa that blacks committed and commit against blacks AND whites truly IS barbaric in this day and age, yet no one seems to want to address these points. The human rights violations of Afrikaaners by the black SA government would send the liberals into intolerable screeds if perpetrated by whites against blacks. I no longer have the white man's guilt and unilaterally reject any attempt to have it restored upon me by anyone. Spitting, which I do not condone, is better treatment than what whites in black countries have to deal with which is beatings, rapes, and murders, no?

If you have so much trouble with uncivilized and evil Europeans, then by all means go back to your nation of origin so you could finally be at peace. Why are you still here fighting against the "intolerance"? Could it be that these societies are much better than anything you could possibly go home to? The chances are quite good that that is the case.

Well, you can admit the irony of a Greek immigrant extolling the virtues of life in Greece, no?

But all this is off the subject.

As I said before, I do happen to lean towards the "immigrants shouldn't carry the flag" stance in this particular case. But not because immigrants are inferior or savage or whatever you want to call them. This is a Greek holiday, one that celebrates the will and determination of Greeks against a horrible enemy. While I can understand the pride immigrant parents must feel that their child is at the head of the class, I think it would be the polite (and to me, correct) thing to defer the honor of carrying the flag to a Greek student.

Personally, though, I think Greeks should be more concerned about why their children aren't at the head of the class than who is carrying the flag.

"...maybe there is a future for me in politics. Definitely not in the US, but maybe a repatriated Greek. I'd set things straight in about 3 seconds."

From the outside looking in, it does seem that simple doesn't it Ethno. You would have quite a fight on your hands with rampant corruption here. If you've had a chance to read the 2005 Corruption Index from Transparency International, you would know that Greece is listed in 47th position...sharing this dubious "honour" with Namibia,Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Even Botswana ranks higher at 32. As good as your intentions may be to set the country straight, you will be hampered by corrupt customs officers, immigration officials and basically about every other civil service department right down the line. How do you think thousands of illegal immigrants manage to make a go of it here in the first place? They paid someone off. Many Greeks seem to have no problem hiring illegal workers which only exacerbates the problem. They either don't care or don't realize how this affects the increase in illegal immigration. Either way, everyone loses.

Gyge...haven't you ever wondered where the racial slur "WOP" originated? It's an acronym for WithOut Papers. Many immigrants arrived in North America without the proper documentation.

One thing's for sure...Greece is a small nation and simply cannot absorb the ever-growing number of ILLEGAL immigrants. The State's lack of a coherent immigration policy is largely to blame for this sorry state of affairs.

Now you get personal, ethnocentrist. I happen to be European too.

"If you have so much trouble with uncivilized and evil Europeans, then by all means go back to your nation of origin so you could finally be at peace. Why are you still here fighting against the "intolerance"? Could it be that these societies are much better than anything you could possibly go home to? The chances are quite good that that is the case."

I have never talked about uncivilised, evil europeans.I fight against intolerance because it is intolerance.
Enough. I cannot fight YOU any more.
You believe what you believe and I doubt anyone can change your mind, least of all me. I feel your disregard of me. And I bow out of this discussion. As always the Diva.

Hey SeaWitch, are blockquote tags allowed?

"Because of the resentment and outright fury exhibited by some schools' parents and classmates, immigrant children succumbed to the pressure and opted out of the parade altogether."

I don't know how people cannot see the shame in this. These are children, they need encouragement and support like all chidrent do, and these kids, in a new country and a new culture need it even more. Whether ethnocentrists and chauvinists like it or not, immigrants are in Greece to stay. Fostering hostility and alienation over which *child* gets to carry a flag for an hour does nothing to promote assimilation, harmony or civility in Greek society. And what does it say about Greeks?

Good blog, SeaWitch, blogrolling you.

Diva, now you're taking the "wounded ego...I'm viewed as beneath you" approach to not only sway public sentiment, but also to use as another tool for guilt induction. I reject both. The only thing you sense from me is my growing intolerance to what I perceive as hypocrisy on your part. You fight for intolerance, yet there is tremendous intolerance worldwide and the MOST tolerant people are the ones you rail against. This is not a personal attack but observational facts, as I see them. And no, you cannot change my mind because my mind has been set by many years of researching these facts and how they are distorted to fit the agenda of elites. You do not argue against MY facts but want to direct the attention to strawman arguments such as "tolerance", as if this is supposed to be some sort of unidirectional universality of only western peoples. It is NOT. The western world has the SAME rights as all other people of this world and those rights are 1) self determination, 2) preservation of self and culture, 3) securing the safety and advancement of respective citizenry, 4) determination of degree of external influences that are deemed tolerable by mandates. All of these rights are dismissed with respect to European peoples. Only the rights of immigrants and third worlders take center stage. You've never argued against any of my points. But then, it is quite difficult to do so because I argue on the side of mostly logic and reason. The left argues on the side of ideology and emotion.

As to you being European, this is the first I've heard of it. As a matter of fact, you clearly stated on your blog multiple times that you were black. Clearly. You never stated half black, or black but born in Europe, or immigrated to Europe as a child and grew up with European education. Now, when it suits you, you are European. If you truly ARE European and value your European whatever it is, you'd state it up front, just as I have from day one. So to me, that implies you do NOT view yourself as European but rather black. So which is it, just so I'm clear and we do not have to go down this road again?

Aslo, again to repeat, I have no tolerance for the faux tolerance of the left and its ideology. It is untenable and detrimental to the western world. That is the only thing you feel because that is what you exude. State logical reasons or possible solutions to the current state of affairs and I'm all ears. Ask me to be tolerant because that's the "right thing to do" and you can forget it.

SeaWitch, yes I agree that the system is quite corrupt. The system needs a complete overhaul. A few bandaids here and there will not suffice. That is why I would never contemplate a political career in the US. The system is too big and too corrupt throughout that only another "revolution" would do the trick. The US is history, unfortunately.

"So to me, that implies you do NOT view yourself as European but rather black."

"rather black?"

You wouldn't happen to be a racist, would you? And why does it matter to you how she identifies herself?

You wouldn't happen to be a racist, would you? And why does it matter to you how she identifies herself?

You know what they call people that jump into the middle of a long discussion without all the facts, don't you? We call them "dork middens" around my parts. You understand, Mr. lefty supreme?

Did everyone get a gander how Dork Midden tried to suppress and essentially cause a screeching halt to any "unpleasant" discussions by using the quite potent leftist tactic of asking if I was "racist"? This is quite a formidable sledgehammer of PC speech suppression the left uses in the US especially and worldwide in general.

Let's recall the leftist dogma of no such thing as race for a second, how can one then be racist? Eh Dork? How is wanting to know what GENETIC and ethnic makeup one is constitute racism, Dork? Just the mere mention makes one racist? Is that the definition du jour? Why even bring it up if you do not have nefarious reasons behind it?

My list of preferences:

1) Family - nuclear
2) Family - extended
3) Close friends
4) Ethnicity
5) Europeans in general
6) The rest of the world

To me and M-W webster, the definition of racist is: A person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.

How do you get 1 + 1 to equal 3?

"Did everyone get a gander how Dork Midden tried to suppress and essentially cause a screeching halt to any "unpleasant" discussions by using the quite potent leftist tactic of asking if I was "racist"? This is quite a formidable sledgehammer of PC speech suppression the left uses in the US especially and worldwide in general."

Translated into English: "Help! I'm being oppressed!"

ethnocentrist, you're funny. You should visit my blog sometime, we'll have a blast.

ethnocentrist, you're funny. You should visit my blog sometime, we'll have a blast.

Translation: Oops, he didn't back down like all other spineless dolts I used that against.

No thanks. I've seen your "blog". There's better fiction on the internet if I was so inclined.

Sorry, published this or something like this before but it got lost?
OK ethnocentrist. Now I'm mad. I stated in another post directed to YOU on my blog.
" I am a British citizen and have the right to live and work or study in another EU country if I choose. You have that same right in Britain"

Yes, I am black, mixed race and british. NOT WHEN IT SUITS ME BUT THAT"S WHAT I AM.

I didn't expect you to back down, I was dismissing you. It's clear by your own words that you're a racist, I wasn't trying to use it as a way to intimidate you, you're clearly very proud of it. I was simply stating the facts.

But whatever you say, oh keeper of the truth.

32 comments already.

Both sides are right as to whether immigrant kids should be allowed to bear the flag. I haven't made up my mind yet, as about any other big issues, such as multiculturalism in the West.

However, characterisms as "barbarians" are outrageous and simply don't stand. To those who distinguish European from American immigration: I've overheard a conversation once where someone accused north Americans of being "the descendands of European and Israeli shit" (no kidding), because a good deal of them were criminals who ran away from their countries. The sound of it is not good, but if one person said it blatantly, there are probably more of the same opinion.

And for once let's not forget that when America started being colonized, Europeans didn't just go there and started working and building houses. The area wasn't vacant when they got there and they slaughtered lots of Indian Tribes. These Europeans weren't the good guys of the fairy tale.

If Greeks had to choose between starvation and drudgery, they would of course prefer drudgery. However, they still don't want to do them and if someone exploits immigrants for 20 euros without social security, it's not the immigrants' fault for taking the Greek's "jaaabs". It happens everywhere in Europe. In London Underground stations I see mostly Africans working there (I'be travelled only between zones 1-3 I don't know what gives in zone 4 and beyond). It's the normal thing. When you immigrate taking nothing with you, the first thing to do is to find a job quickly to put food on the table.

I've been in England for some time, and as long as you work, this country is very hospitable and you're treated as equal. Greece hasn't done that yet (we never say never). End of story.

Seawitch: Yep, it doesn't matter whether or not Churchill said that heroes fight like Greeks. With a small army compared to those of bigger powers, Greece had fought well and repelled the Italians for 2 complete months! That alone says a lot.
You may appreciate my blog, but it seems to me it's the result of me not having many things outside work to do :P

Wow, this has spiralled out of control...

We've had the "race-immigration" discussion before, on a different forum and I don't see any new opinions on the flag issue, so... call it even and move on?

I would be interested in some ideas on how to save Greece from (what I perceive as almost inevitable) doom, but I do not impose on the hospitality of SeaWitch. I've heard in response to my post that:

1) ... (silence)
2) I'm drunk (yea, excellent reasoning, bravo)
3) We need a new Papadopoulos (more or less)
4) There are simple ideas out there that could fix the problem (in three seconds, if I'm not mistaken)

Now, I'm not a stickler for detail, I'd allow three years or even three decades. But what's the plan? What would you do?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that might save Greece is something very, very unpleasant. Certainly intervention, both from the outside and - hopefully - from "above". I just hope we'd still retain some of the dignity and heroism of our ancestors of 60 years ago.

Hi, ethnocentrist. What I think is that you shouldn't presume to know what I think. Keep guessing, ec!

Thanks for taking the time out of your Mother of All Blogs to visit and post on mine. Glad to see you here! (If I knew what blockquote tags were, I'm probably sure I'd allow them...I'm just thrilled I can manage to post a blog every other day let alone even THINK about HTML.)

Steel...I tried to post on your blog but I got an error message. (That's the second time it's happened...I don't know what I've done wrong.)I just wanted to say that the reason you haven't seen a "No Swearing" sign on my blog is because I was too busy swearing to post it. LOL

Ethno...Diva has stated her ethnicity in her blog although what bearing that has on her ability to comment on my blog mystifies me.

Thanos...What can I say? When you're right, you're right. We can't continue to whine and point fingers if we're not prepared to actually DO something about it. For me, it all starts at a personal level. We can't blame politicians for nepotism if we expect to profit from their nepotism. We can't blame the government for hoarding our tax dollars in personal offshore accounts when we do the same. The hypocricy must stop. The blame must stop. The change, as you so accurately stated, must start ona personal level. As soon as we become personally accountable for our own actions (or lack of), then we can justifiably point the finger to our elected officials. (Your attempt to steer this debate into another direction is not an imposition...it's appreciated.)

The first paragraph of my last post was directed at zork. I guess that's what happens when I'm reading other responses and typing at the same time...dementia.

Dismissing ME, Zork? LOL Now that's rich coming from an indoctrinated automaton of PCism. Zork, in case you missed it, YOU were the one who was dismissed. Understand now oh great mindreader with a generous, broad, and dynamic definition of racism?

Seawitch, Diva's racial background doesn't matter one iota on whether she can comment or not. That's not what I was saying. It has to do with semantics and ulterior motives. It's not important, though I do remember vividly she stated to me, she was black and not mixed nor European. It goes toward being honest about "tolerance". The western world has made ungodly strides towards being tolerant and in my opinion, ignorantly so. She rails against the intolerance of Greeks and Brits (though less so due to not being there). If one was interested in tolerance then one needs to be completely honest about ALL forms of intolerance and the black community in the US and globally is quite intolerant. I know full well the "warts" behind Greece and Greeks and freely admit to them. I do not hide this. Regardless of modern Greek imperfection, I am an advocate of preserving the culture. The whole thing really is a non-issue, though honesty and fairness is a big issue to me.

Mikey my boy, OK I will.

Thanos, Thanos, Thanos. My dear levelheaded Greek friend from across the ocean. What's YOUR solution to this inevitable doom that awaits Greece? I've given answers that can and should be enacted towards the Greek youth. I've stated that entitlement programs are not there to be careers for people. I've mentioned that immigration should be stopped, COMPLETELY.

Those are some concrete suggestions and I'm not sure you were paying attention. All I hear from you is whining as well as hand wringing, my friend. Tell me what YOU think will save the slovenly youth and country from destruction. I remember you stated that despite your sorrow towards this inevitability, you thought it was a form of "evolution". Right? WRONG!

It's quite simple and the solution depends on the intestinal fortitude of the people:

1) Go along with this utter mess and become replaced as a people and culture. In 100 to 150 years, not a single Greek will be around the territory formally known as Greece.

~or~

2) Balkanize the countries so there is less of Greece and all other European countries. Hell if Lichtenstein can do it. We'll have a "New Turkey", "New Morocco", "New Africa". Wonderful really.

~or~

3) Stop immigration NOW. Stop asylum seekers NOW. If necessary, as an extreme, maintain a TEMPORARY guest worker program for 1 to 2 years and BACK THEY GO. No buts!

4) Repatriate all non-Ethnic citizens unless married to Greeks or having verifiable documentation that their family has been citizens for 3 or 4 generations.

5) Instill laws that deal with breaking of the new "ethnicity" laws with the harshest of penalities. In line with treason.

6) Give Greeks the choice, sink or swim. If they want to wither and die, by all means do it. The culture has gotten disgustingly complacent and depraved. The strongest will survive and will be for the better.

7) Round up all the appropriate suspects that have slowly but surely gotten the country into this mess and hang them from the highest peak on Mt Olympus where they shall remain as a reminder to any future "do-gooders".

Here are your answers. Yes, a very tough choice though the weight of an entire ethnic population hangs on the balance.

While I do not want immigrants engulfing Greece or Europe in general, I have no great animosity towards them because they are simply coming because they are allowed to and encouraged actually. It is not their fault for their plight. The people I blame most are the ones that need #7 above as a form of punishment. They are the most evil and corrupt vermin that has infested the higher echelons of government, continent wide.

I can hardly wait for replies.

SeaWitch,

Being Canadian and all, thought you may like this...

Globe and Mail

Ontario plans to raise funding for immigrants

The amount of money Ontario spends helping new immigrants get settled in Canada is set to quadruple in the next few weeks.

Mike Colle, the province's Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, said yesterday the government is "very close" to increasing the amount for each immigrant to $3,400 from about $800. The money is used to provide immigrants with language lessons, job training and other services.

"We know that without money, they won't succeed," Mr. Colle said. "They just need a little money up front."

Ontario takes in more than half the immigrants to Canada every year. Of 235,000 new Canadians last year, 125,000 ended up in Ontario. The vast majority -- 100,000 -- moved to Toronto.

Ontario is heavily dependent on its immigrants to preserve population growth. Almost 30 per cent of the current population is immigrant-based.


Wow, my parents sure as fuck could have used $3,400 PER MONTH to "get settled". Canadians are paying for this out of their own pockets so these new immigrants will preserve "population growth". Riiiiiight. That makes so much sense to me.

Oops, almost missed this little gem!

Ontario is planning to build economic development and trade offices in cities such as Tokyo and Paris to attract new immigrants.

Here that SeaWitch! Canada wants Parisians to immigrate to the Great White North. LMAO Considering that Paris is infiltrated with the largest portion of the 5-8 million muslims in France, I wonder who will be coming?

As much as the US is screwed up, Canada takes the cake. As tolerant as that country is, it TOO has multi-culti problems that are ever increasing. Goes to show just how viable the cult of multi-culti is, eh?

"The western world has made ungodly strides towards being tolerant and in my opinion, ignorantly so."

Those "ungodly strides toward being tolerant" that the western world has made, include the murder of a few million Jews and gypsies simply because they were Jews and gypsies.

And on the subject of tolerance and racism, I'd love to hear ethny's opinions about Jews :-)

And also, I cannot find any evidence that Israel does genetic testing on immigrants other than to test for hereditary diseases. Would you please provide a link?

Dork, my job description does not involve masturbating you. You need to do it yourself in order to get your rocks off.

You're such an amateur at this, aren't you? Right out of the leftist code book of rebuttals he trots out the "Hitler" bogeyman! Oooooo, look out, I see him right behind you! LOL Yes, we must destroy ONLY western culture and civilization because of a nutjob. Makes logical sense to me. Right Dork, gotcha. Let's not mention the atrocities that occurred under Marxism that has led to over 100 million deaths, shall we? How about the millions dead due to tribal conflicts in Africa, Dork? Want to forget about them? What about the "tolerance" seen in Central or South America? LOL

In the words of the immortal W.C. Fields..."Go away, kid. You bother me."

As to Israel, here you go sonny...

Indian 'Jews' resist DNA tests to prove they are a lost tribe
By Inigo Gilmore in Jerusalem
(Filed: 10/11/2002)

Members of a remote community of Indians who claim to be descendants of one of the 10 lost tribes of ancient Israel are resisting plans to carry out genetic tests to prove their Jewishness.


Telegraph UK


and here...


'Who is a Jew?' question becoming more complex

Rabbi Stephen Pearce

However, the question of "Who is a Jew?" has become increasingly more difficult to determine today, not because of this wearying conflict between Jews of different movements, but because of unexpected groups that claim Jewish ancestry. In various places throughout the world, people who seem least likely to be clamoring to go to Israel and claim citizenship under the Law of Return present a dilemma for Israeli government officials and religious authorities.

Israeli officials fear, now that Israel is prospering and making peace with its neighbors, that residents of poorer countries will claim Jewish ancestry to take advantage of Israel's higher quality of life. This is not a far-fetched concern. For example, since 1989, the Interior Ministry has granted temporary-resident status and even citizenship to limited numbers of the Shinlung communities of northeastern India, Burma, Thailand and Bangladesh. The Shinlung trace their ancestry to the biblical tribe of Manasseh, call their deity Yíwa, and have their own Exodus story and feast days corresponding to Jewish holidays.

Among those least expected to hail from ancient Israel are the 50,000 African Lemba who occupy the Southpansberg Mountains in the northern region of South Africa. According to their oral tradition, they claim to be descendants of Abraham, members of a lost tribe that emigrated to Yemen some 2,500 years ago and then moved down the east coast of Africa, settling in what is today Zimbabwe and South Africa. They have been part of a test group that has allowed American and British scientists to study their chromosomes. Among Jews who claim descent from the Kohanim, the priests of the ancient Temple, at least 70 percent have a common set of markers on their Y chromosome. Among the general Lemba population the incidence of the Kohen chromosome is 8.8 percent, a frequency similar to that found among the general Jewish population. But among the senior Lemba clan, the Buba, the incidence of the chromosome is 53.8 percent.

While most Lemba do not express an interest in settling in Israel, Israeli authorities worry about hoards of "long-lost Jews," mainly from Third World countries, descending on Israel. The accuracy and reliability of genetic testing raises the question of whether such biological analysis could become the basis for determining Jewish status and whether that would be acceptable to Israeli authorities.

Israel has always encouraged immigration of Western Jews; whether Israelis can do the same for Third World people claiming Jewish ancestry remains to be seen.


Jewish News Weekly

Oops! They do do testing to find out who is a Jew and who isn't, don't they? Any more "stumpers", Dork? Israel has no qualms in 1) making sure only Jews go to Israel, 2) protecting their prosperity, and 3) not wanting third worlders, even if Jewish.

There you go Dork. You have your work cut out for you to undo this "discrimination" on the part of Israel. We can't be the ONLY morons in the world, now can we?

If only Greece treated immigrants the way the racist Israelis do.

Dork, my job description does not involve masturbating you. You need to do it yourself in order to get your rocks off.Filthy imagery and personal abuse, does that make you a skilled debater? Or just a filthy-mouthed bully with no social skills? Grow up.

Nowhere in your link does it say that this is Israeli policy, ethny. This is an op-ed piece about what Israel may or may not do sometime in the future. Again, it's someone's opinion, not Israel's official policy.

You're full of bluster and thunder and rush to insults, but your argument remains empty.

Read carefully to Ethnocentrist, he understands clearly the issues and sees the big picture. Unfortunately Gyge seems to have faded away. I enjoyed his postings . Plinio Centeno made some startling points.

There is a poster who claims to be black ?, obviously he will make his viewpoint made known from a black perspective, therefore no constructive debate can be had with the poster.With all due respect I don't expect a non greek to provide solutions for our problems. l As a black man and an educated one his talents can be much better utilized in African countries where his skills will be in high demand and he can make tangible contributions to its betterment and upliftment.Since he appears to be a passionate defender of immigration ,his skills on the subject can be deployed in Africa to convince Africans to develop immigration policies on the continent and contain the brain drain Africa is suffering through emigration and offer advice for its reversal.

Views on Greece and Greece's problems are insipid and superfluous when expressed by foreigners. The foreigner will never lift a finger for Greece, his heart, his emotions will always be with the blood of his ancestors ,and rightly so.

We have a little country and we are a race nation state and we love it like that.If a foreigner does not like it it's his problem.We offend no one by protecting what is ours. I don't want to see my country polluted by immigration.I don't want to feel a stranger in my land. Greece is not an immigrant country. I don't believe this is difficult to understand. I have grown tired listening to the lies that we need workers, we need manpower, we need immigrants we need this ,we need that, in fact we need anything and everything that is antinational. Lies and deceit to further the aims of certain political groups and serve their multicultural and nation wrecking agenda's.

There is no question and no debate on the Greek flag issue. The Greek flag must be borne by a Greek and only Greeks.

ethnoboy! You've migrated!

Try and keep the vulgarity in check, and maybe I'll have another go at you. Better have some ouzo on hand.

Hi Seawitch. Nice blog.

So, basically we agree that the only way to save Greece is to institute a dictatorship.

What does that say about us? The greek people, inventors of Democracy, are on the same level as Iraquis. See how the U.S. tried to make Iraq a democracy? It won't succeed, because the people aren't ready yet. They need the "father figure" and tough rule. Apparently, so do we. If that is so, I'd rather we do fade into obscurity. What a shame! Shame! Descendants of Pericles and Solon, who can't behave better than dogs. People who can't elect and then obey their own government. And please! Don't say it's all the "outside influence". We are very good at digging our own grave.

Thus, if the choice is "saved by dictatorship" or "perish", I'm going with perish make no mistake. A "fourth reich" Greece, a Greece as envisioned by misguided patsies like Papadopoulos or calculated traitors like Pattakos is not my country. And I will do my damndest to make sure it never happens.

Now, as to what we can do, barring dictatorships and acts of god? I suppose not much. We can take care of our children and those children we can reach (teachers for example). We can work dilligently at our profession, pay our dues to the country, vote consciously, avoid and damn corruption wherever we find it.

And hope for the best.

Immigration? I don't see how it all fits with saving or not Greece. I do agree it needs to be regulated. But I strongly believe that at this point, healthy immigration policies are the only thing that can save our aging workforce and declining social security.

I'll respond to Thanos later when I have time. The crux of the issue is what Dexamenus said. Greece is not an immigrant country and has no obligation to become one. The onus of the argument falls on the sycophants and anti-racists to show why we should open ourselves up to racial and ethnic genocide. I'll be waiting on responses.

As to Dork and his buddy from his "blog", Evar-the-Moron, you two little Marxists-in-training can be spotted miles away. I have no patience whatsoever to be insulted, as Dork did right from the start, by inept and tired liberal codespeak for speech and thought suppression. I've walked this road for way too long and have seen way too many carbon copies of yourselves to be tolerant of the same bullshit uttered out of your mouths. You want to have a normal dialogue and "try" to advance your point of view, great. I'm always open to debate because that is the reason I write about the things I do. HOWEVER, if you're only going to give me fresh-out-of-school Marxist arrogance, smear disguised as debate, goading, mocking, and trolling, well then I'll gladly stomp on both your little peckers every damn time with no remorse. Your choice.

Dork: As I recall, I said:

China, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Japan all have racial legislation and will not allow anyone to immigrate unless they are from the respective countries and can prove it. In Israel’s case, genetic testing is done.

Genetic testing IS done. The Law of Return is strict and people have to prove their Jewishness and if the Rabbinical "court" is not convinced, they do genetic testing. Whether or not it is "official" Israeli policy was your assumption and the information is currently not available to the general public. That it is done at all, already puts them in a different boat than Europe. You don't seem to have a problem with this?

Evar: Touching little story there. How about this...

Adamka, 30, immigrated to Israel in 1985, and lives in Tel Aviv. "Although I've been here 20 years I don't feel Israeli. My identity is first Jewish and then Ethiopian. I don't feel I belong here. The culture doesn't speak to me. I don't watch Channel 2. I feel connected to the Ethiopian culture, that has existed for thousands of years, rather than the Israeli one," he says.

Many Ethiopians in their 20s and 30s, who were born in Israel or immigrated at a young age, admit that although they passed the military "melting pot" they still feel different and unwanted in Israelis' hangouts and prefer to hang out in their own places.


Ethiopian Jews

This kind of puts your touching "humanitarian" story in a new light, eh? Here we have Jews that were born in Israel 20 or more years ago who feel unwanted and discriminated against and you want to me to ignore that because Israel will give permanent resident status to illegal immigrants children? Uh-huh.

Don't people read the comments before they wade in?

Dexamenus, you said
"There is a poster who claims to be black ?"
I don't CLAIM to be black, I am.

"obviously he will make his viewpoint made known from a black perspective, therefore no constructive debate can be had with the poster."

How does the colour of my skin or my perspective effect my ability to have a constructive debate?

"As a black man and an educated one his talents can be much better utilized in African countries "

I am a woman (divas generally are).
And why in an African country? I am British as I've stated several times before. Why should I be confined to use my talents in Africa?

I said last night I was bowing out because I felt this personal attack on me and my identity had got out of hand and was not part of the original argument. Also I was tired.
I came back today to see more venom and bile thrown around here.

A friend wrote to me this morning and pointed out that as this argument has gone on the "boys" have got louder and louder and their comments are getting longer. The more reasoned voices got smaller and their comments shorter. Interesting. It's usually the loudest and rudist that get heard in the end. But if all the smaller voices stop, they will assume they have one by their "fact filled" "informed" and "intelligent" arguments.

ethnocentrist, If you want to talk about honesty, I have been more honest about who I am than most people here. I have always written from the personal unlike you who have chosen to hide behind your "facts and statistics" I have told you I am european, that I am black, that I believe this and that. What difference does it make if I am mixed race or whatever? If you read back on my blog where we had many exchanges you will see. Do not insult me just because you did not remember.

"Whether or not it is "official" Israeli policy was your assumption and the information is currently not available to the general public."

So the information is not available to the general public, but you know it because you're special, is that it? Does Sharon consult you before he speaks too?

Ethny, besides being a racist, you are misinformed, continuously make wrong assumptions and you're arrogant about your errors in judgement. You've become a caricature. You have no argument, only insults. You come across as a small-endowed man with a Napoleonic complex.

"...well then I'll gladly stomp on both your little peckers..."

LMAO! Yeah, reach through your screen and stomp on our "little peckers". You're a pathetic keyboard warrior, helplessly frothing at the mouth. You're a joke, ethny :-)

deviousdiva,

"What difference does it make if I am mixed race or whatever?"

To a racist, it makes all the difference because racists see the world through the prisms of skin colour and "genetic superiority". And ethny is a racist.

Hey ethny, what have your genes done for you lately?

I know. Just trying to make some sense out of this discussion. Like banging your head on a brick wall.

Dork has clearly shown the modus operandi of the venomous left. Flame, slander, demean, mock, goad, troll, offer no counter argument, when proven wrong then sidetrack the debate into ad hominems of something completely irrelevant or off topic.

This is repeated by all small-minded leftists that think they know shit. Dork is no different and as a matter of fact, he's worse than most because he couldn't even muster a fight to begin with and went straight to attack mode.

Dork, sticks and stones, moron. Sticks and stones. The evidence is all documented above on who's who. You or me. It also shows your character, or really lack there of, on how you no moral issues to disregard SeaWitch's request for civility. While I do at times lash out, I also at least provide information in my posts. Look at your pathetic ad hom filled tirade.

Well, something must have touched a nerve with Ethno because he usually doesn't get so personal. And I don't know if his moanings about liberals and marxists are really the crux of his problem.

This conversation started to throw me for a loop when he implied that if Diva was black she couldn't be European. I did a Scooby Doo like shaking my head on that one.

What I really don't get is why or how being black/Jewish/Greek/European or whatever matters in the scope of things. Obviously, yes, people have opinions based on their backgrounds and who they are. How can they not? But just because someone is black doesn't mean they can't see the point of view of a white person, or vice versa.

Perhaps you are right. Greece does not have a responsibility to take on immigrants of any kind. Nor does anyone, really. I agree to the extent that Greece cannot afford to take on the number of immigrants that frequently arrive on it's shores. But this is an issue the EU as a whole needs to work on.

Do I have solutions? Not really, aside from things I have suggested on Diva's site.

But in the end, why shouldn't the Nigerian have the right to move to a new country to make a better life for himself and his family? Why is not ok for him but ok for the Greeks that constantly move to America or wherever looking for a better life for themselves and their families?

LOL, this is really funny: ethny, a racist who talks about "masturbating" other posters and wants to "stomp their peckers" and throws insults all over the place, when cornered, he starts yelling "help me mommy, they're not being civil to me!"

ethny, keep talking, you keep making an even bigger fool of yourself. I enjoy watching :-)

diva girl, just for you:

Q: Why didn't the racist cross the road?
A: He was afraid of the other side.

Q: What's the difference between a racist's house and a porcupine?
A: With the porcupine, the pricks are on the outside.

Have a lovely evening, dd.

Dork has clearly shown the modus operandi of the venomous left. Flame, slander, demean, mock, goad, troll, offer no counter argument, when proven wrong then sidetrack the debate into ad hominems of something completely irrelevant or off topic.

You have clearly shown the modus operandi of the moronic right. Act like a twat and then whine when you get called out on it.

Could we stay (approximately) on the subject? Or otherwise end this? I come back to find 5 new comments, most of which are moronic and make no point whatsoever.

Whether you disagree or strongly disagree with the "other side", it's best to offer arguments and not "LOLs" and jokes. Unwittingly, Zork, you lend credence to Ethnocentrist's remarks. It does seem as if you just ran out of intelligent things to say - something that's not true I am sure. It is true, Ethno seems to be uncharacteristically insenced, perhaps some chord was struck as Mel said, who knows.

If we have something to say on the subject let's. If not, let's not post needlessly.

A Black person can not be and is not a European, he/she might consider herself/himself a European ; a "paper" European. Europeans are white and have clear delineated blood lines.Accusations of racism are puerile and stupid .Facts are facts. The multiculturalist, the pluralist accuses those who disagree with his views as a racist. The racist can return the compliment by accusing his accusers of racial nihilism or genetic criminals.

The jus sanguinius law ought to be restored in its full glory. The right of blood makes one a citizen not the place of birth. A donkey might be born in a stable, that does not make it a horse. Several hundred thousand chinese immigrants with citizenship rights in Greece would be sufficient to snuff out Greece as a nation state and convert it into a Bazaar.Or does anyone think that the chinese would metamorphose into Greeks ? Two million Turks in Germany ? Has anyone thought the cataclismic consequences of half that number of muslim immigrants in Greece ?

We need more scribes like Ethnocentric, he not only makes his points with telling elan, based on study and research, but also reacts with vigour and venom against dilettante amateurs who are the standard bearers of fictional dogmas and always shielding behind high sounding phrases like " equality, fraternity, tolerance" and other pseudo human rights lore.

These amateurs think that by producing emetic sentences, repeating parrot fashion what they have imbibed in indoctrination centers is enough to convince and win arguments.

What we have here is a foretaste of things to come if the tide of the "Barbarians" ( Gyge's quote) envelops Greece. Greeks ( just like it is happening in France or the U.K) will not be able to air their opinions without being castigated with name calling and vilified with opprobrium for their thoughts. We are entering a new dark age and some of us seem to be pleasantly happy about the prospect.

A Greek flag bearer in Greece, an Albanian flag bearer in Albania, a Turkish flag bearer in Turkey, there is no conflict in this simple fact.

Thanos, I posted my reasoning here. Ethny is a racist and I have no respect for racists, they're a joke.

I can see that my attitude bothers you however, so enjoy ethny on your own.

Nice big words. And again I hear of blood and genetics. It certainly is not true that only white people have long bloodlines in Europe. Not to mention there are so many shades of white... but I suppose you mean "non black, non yellow". Fair enough.

As I said, nice big words. What of the European Spirit? What of the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, the values of Europe and not the genetics? Are you telling me that a 10th generation British black person from Jamaica or any other "colony", a black person that has studied and lived and bathed all their lives in the essence of Europe is not european? How do you reckon that?

And don't quote genetics please, unless you are prepared to give me a locus on the "European protein". I'm tired of science being used on both sides without a shred of proof.

And I direct my questions above to you too, W. Look at Greece today and tell me what you see. Do you see a proud nation on the way to great things? Or something else? I'd be interested to hear (or see) what you have to say.

Thank you Wotan for bringing a tremendous helping of civility and logic back into the discussion, which for people who got lost is IMMIGRATION of genetically distant people into European nations. As you rightfully state, the slander of racist is the only thing left for the vile leftist, Marxist, globalist, transnationalist in his arsenal of thought and speech suppression. The only racists these "people" ever want to ferret out are white racists. Yellow, brown, black racists are encouraged because their racism is due to whites, don't you know? The issue is IRRELEVENT anyway. Whether a person is racist or not, the issue still stands that we have the HUMAN RIGHT to protect and preserve our countries and ethnicities. This treacherous immigration ploy is nothing but racial and ethnic annhilation of western peoples ONLY. I've stated before all the other countries that will not entertain any immigration into their lands, however we MUST for some strange and "unexplainable" reason.

Dork's sole argument is he hates racists. Well there you go. How can one argue against that steel trap logic? His little tirade was justified in his poorly developed mind apparently. Why contemplate unpleasant facts when hissy fits will do?

Thanos, to answer your question...

Are you telling me that a 10th generation British black person from Jamaica or any other "colony", a black person that has studied and lived and bathed all their lives in the essence of Europe is not european?

Short answer is NO. Longer answer falls back on your apparent hated topic of genetics. Race makes culture, Thanos. Not the other way around. A Jamaican Black will never be an Englishman. Never. Same with a Greek. Now if this Jamaican married an English woman, and their offspring subsequently did the same for 10 generations then yes, they are Englishmen. Personally speaking, my children are half Greek though 100% European. If they marry Greeks, then their children are 3/4 Greek and still 100% European. Just what the hell does a non-Greek know about Greece and Greek culture or even care when push came to shove? We've been down this road before, you and I. You may not want to hear it, though there WILL be a complete decoding of the human genome and they will find all kinds of quarky genes that makes us who we are. I am not about the relinquish anything for the sake of ideology. What are you and the likes of Dork going to say then after all sorts of immigration? Sorry? We were wrong?

"A Jamaican Black will never be an Englishman"

Now you really have lost the plot, ethncentrist.

A british citizen is british regardless of how many generations have been british, the colour of his skin, his religion, his ethnicity or what he likes to eat for breakfast. This is not some liberal bla bla.(whatever you like to call it) It is fact.

Perhaps, you would find something interesting if you went to Jamaica and talked to some people there. When I was there, one of the things the people are most proud of is the fact that if you were born in Jamaica, you are a Jamaican. They are proud of their national motto "Out of Many One People"

ethnocentrist, Yuh tuh fass

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Thanks Zorkie. I did indeed have a great evening out with friends and away from this blogging quagmire. It was refreshing and revitalising to have a lively and civil conversation. I don't always see eye to eye with with my Greek friends and we have heated discussions on these same issues but I am never insulted by them. That's the big difference with what goes on here.

Having to defend my background is perhaps, the hardest part about being in this discussion. To be told I am not european because I am black actually hurt. I know ethnocentrist (and the others) are just sad cases but it surprised me how much their comments and opinions actually got to me personally.

Anyway, I've had great support from my friends, virtual and real, who have urged me to keep writing. So that's why I'm back here.
Thanks to all of you.

Back to the original discussion. I haven't noticed yet, in the media, any arguments arising this year on who will carry the flag. Has anyone else? Maybe, we have moved on?

To Thanos,

I am obliged to reply to your question since it has been addressed as such, however I thank Ethnocentrist for having provided most of the reponse.

I will restrict myself to a few lines.

Thanos,

a nation is not just a cultural continuity, it is a biological continuity, if you reject this outright there is little point in me continuing.

The desire to see one's people survive and prosper is natural, healthy, and moral. Nor need it imply the slightest hostility towards other groups. I'll provide a parallel : I love my children more than I love the children of strangers. I love them not because they are more intelligent or better looking( although on aesthetic grounds alone I have reason to want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents; I don't want them to look like Anwar Sadat , Whoppy Goldberg or Admiral Yamamoto) or more gifted or more musical or more athletic than everyone else.I love them because they are mine, and I make tremendous sacrifices for them I would never make for anyone else. This does not mean I am hostile to the children of others. But my children come first.

We have larger loyalties that are analogous to our feelings for our children. Whether it is our nation,our ethnicity, or our race.
Our nation or race is, in effect, our extended family in the largest sense, and our feelings for our extended family are a dilute, but broader version of what we feel for our close kin.

Who will sing our songs, pray our prayers,celebrate our heroes, honour our traditions, venerate our ancestors, love the things we love ??? A Black from Jamaica ? or a Pakistany from the Punjab ? or an Arab from Nubia ? or a Turk, or an Albanian ???

Only our family, our extended family. Only our extended family will carry our civilization forward in a meaningful way. Only the biological heirs to the people who created a civilization ( Renaissance, enlightnement, european values ?, you made allusions to them )have ever maintained, cherished, and advanced that civilization.
In this dark phase of our history never before have we been psychological unmanned.
We are the only dupes who pretend to believe that if our country fills up with the children of others rather than our own children, it will still be our country. This delusion , if it persists, will be our death knell (and there will no necessity to go down like the Titanic).
The fundamental interest of a any nation state, or race is survival as a people. We have an absolute right to be us, and only we can be us.

We have a right to be left alone in our homelands , to take part in the unfolding or our national identities free of the unwanted embrace of people unlike ourselves.
It is fashionable ( IN WHITE COUNTRIES ONLY) to argue that racial or national loyalty is just not outmoded but wrong. That is the abiding bigotry of our age.

Let's hope it dies as quickly as it has grown, for unless we are able to rekindle what our ancestors took for granted ( a sense of the larger biological connectedeness to nation and culture) our destiny will be oblivion .... then no one will care who carries the Greek Flag since Oxi day would no longer exist.

Compared to the past, I don't think I would call modern Greece an advanced civilization, no. I see modern Greeks and much of their behavior as meaning these Greeks really shouldn't breed. But I've been saying the same thing about Americans for a long time as well.

The reality about the immigrants carrying the flag on Oxi day is the fact that immigrants are surpassing Greek children in academics. What does that tell you? I've said repeatedly I don't think immigrants should carry the flag, that it is a right of the Greek children, but in the end, I don't think that is what Greeks should be worried about. Greeks need to be worried about why their children aren't at the head of the class. To say "well, if we had never allowed these immigrants here in the first place they would be at the head of the class" doesn't cut it.

Somewhere, somehow, Greeks have lost something. That was my only real disappointment in moving here. I expected more of the descendants of such great people.

Thanks for replying. Let me go over a few points myself:

a nation is not just a cultural continuity, it is a biological continuity

We have gone over this with Ethnocentrist - his post recaps some points. I do not agree that genes make a people (alone at least). There is probably a genetic substrate, on which people develop stimulated by the environment. Since no "ethnic" genes have been found yet (but neither disproven), there is no need to continue down that path, we will agree to disagree.

You make a more specific observation here, which I hope is wrong. I hope it's wrong, because greek biological continuity has been seriously compromised. I won't repeat ridiculous (and certainly carefully aimed and deliberate) theories, which claim greeks of today have nothing in common (blood-wise, genetically) with ancient greeks like Plato. But it is undeniable, that our greek blood has been intermixed with so many other genes, that we today are certainly different than our forefathers. Should I count? Egyptian blood, Persian (and lots of it), Roman, Slavic, Albanian, Turkish... need I go on? We almost certainly resemble Anwar Sadat more than Pericles did. We speak a different language almost (even though the roots are the same). We bow to different gods, our philosophy is different.

One might say, that a teenager today has more in common with a german teenager than a greek teen of 400 BC. So what of it? Are we less "greek", because of our mixed blood? As I said... I hope not. Racial purity theories are not only utopistic, but downright stupid. There is no pure race, anywhere in the world.

Now, you might say that the peoples I've mentioned are - for the most part - "caucasian" or Indo-European if you prefer and not black or yellow. True, and in this sense perhaps Greece has remained more homogenous than - say - Britain. However, to quote a passage from your post:

Who will sing our songs, pray our prayers,celebrate our heroes, honour our traditions, venerate our ancestors, love the things we love ??? A Black from Jamaica ? or a Pakistany from the Punjab ? or an Arab from Nubia ? or a Turk, or an Albanian ???

You make a good point, if one reverses it. It is not our genes, but our history, language, our stories and traditions, our heroes and villains, our hopes and fears that make us a people, that make us "Greek" and different from "German". If you continue this train of thought, yes. A black, a yellow, a red, a purple can be greek. And I'm talking hard-core, patriotic greek. What does the race matter? Nothing, as long as the person, their parents and their parents have been brought up as greeks.

You touch upon a fine point. Immigrants do retain some traditions. First generation immigrants still say they are "albanian" let's say and not "greek". Their children might say the same. However, this erodes in time - and with organized state effort.

That should be the aim of our immigration policy, a two-pronged "attack" if you will. First, try to regulate the influx. This can never be 100% successful. Second, pardon my expression, bulldoze the new immigrants, grind them into (cultural) pulp and reform greeks out of them. How do you do that? Give them jobs, housing, opportunities and make it all dependent of their learning the language, of socializing. Don't let them form ghettos. Spread them all over the country, not near the borders. And more. Help them and by helping them, help your country. Now, this will only be 30% successful, let's say, for the first generation. But wait 2 more and the people will be 100% greek. They won't even speak their former language. Never underestimate the teenage need to belong. I don't mean to sound like Goebels, but in order to accept new citizens, this is the only way. It's different for guest workers, temporary visas etc of course.

We have a right to be left alone in our homelands , to take part in the unfolding or our national identities free of the unwanted embrace of people unlike ourselves.

For better or for worse, that ship has sailed. In the modern world, no one can be left alone. Not even if you erect walls around your borders. North Korea might be the last such place on our planet and the walls are eroding fast. It is more realistic to adapt (dinosaurs will disappear and become extinct with every change, you know that). Adapt to the influx of immigrants, adapt to the influx of foreign culture. Build defenses that are flexible. Stem the tide as much as you can and incorporate as much as you can. Keep the good, revitalize your people, your economy and - yes! - your gene pool, discard what is harmful.

You realize of course, that in order to do this, our country needs solid leadership and even more solid, thinking people. A true, vibrant democracy. The government that rules us and has ruled us (both sides) - the governments that we deserve, for they are after all just a reflection of our people - cannot and will not do anything for us. And we, it would appear, greeks I mean, will not do anything for ourselves. We are nearsighted and soon to be totally blind and led around. Too bad.

To all you Fascist pigs who are writing your poison on this post, who have arguments as intelligent as your single cell brains allow, to you prototype gas chamber operators, to the general hysterical statistic quoting, pseudo intellectual xenophobes, to you the ethnocentric, genetically pure, inbreds, to you genocidal armchair Right-wingers, dreaming about the day you take the world over and make it pure and clean and white, I leave Mr Cavafy the last word:

Waiting for the Barbarians

What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

The barbarians are to arrive today.

Why such inaction in the Senate?
Why do the Senators sit and pass no laws?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today.
What laws can the Senators pass any more?
When the barbarians come they will make the laws.

Why did our emperor wake up so early,
and sits at the greatest gate of the city,
on the throne, solemn, wearing the crown?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today.
And the emperor waits to receive
their chief. Indeed he has prepared
to give him a scroll. Therein he inscribed
many titles and names of honor.

Why have our two consuls and the praetors come out
today in their red, embroidered togas;
why do they wear amethyst-studded bracelets,
and rings with brilliant, glittering emeralds;
why are they carrying costly canes today,
wonderfully carved with silver and gold?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today,
and such things dazzle the barbarians.

Why don't the worthy orators come as always
to make their speeches, to have their say?

Because the barbarians are to arrive today;
and they get bored with eloquence and orations.

Why all of a sudden this unrest
and confusion. (How solemn the faces have become).
Why are the streets and squares clearing quickly,
and all return to their homes, so deep in thought?

Because night is here but the barbarians have not come.
And some people arrived from the borders,
and said that there are no longer any barbarians.

And now what shall become of us without any barbarians?
Those people were some kind of solution.

Constantine P. Cavafy (1904)

Wotan,

Your writing is impeccable and I do not doubt we have visited or read many of the same explanations for our current plight. Thank you for joining us.

To Thanos and Melusina,

You two make absolutely wonderful, superb, crystal clear, extremely inciteful points. Here's one kiss for Thanos and TWO for Melusina ;) Seriously the points are:

Melusina said...

Compared to the past, I don't think I would call modern Greece an advanced civilization, no. I see modern Greeks and much of their behavior as meaning these Greeks really shouldn't breed. But I've been saying the same thing about Americans for a long time as well.

and Thanos said...

But it is undeniable, that our greek blood has been intermixed with so many other genes, that we today are certainly different than our forefathers. Should I count? Egyptian blood, Persian (and lots of it), Roman, Slavic, Albanian, Turkish... need I go on? We almost certainly resemble Anwar Sadat more than Pericles did.

To me, one need look no further than these two little snippets to get your answer on the effects of 1) advanced liberalism and 2) genetic intermixing. I've been thinking about this for some time, in particular to Greece and its current "culture" and the causality of cultural decadence/suicide can be linked to the two above. It is difficult to prove, though any any attempt at proof would never even be allowed to occur in this day and age of PC, however it has become clear to me thinking logically of cause and effect. Advanced liberalism has been the bane of the western world for at least 60 years and only ramping up though thankfully there are people who are beginning to reject it slowly. It has allowed western people and Greeks specifically to behave in deleterious ways towards themselves and their people. We were never like this. I am not talking about internecine conflicts which were tribal in nature anyway. I am talking about are complete disregard for anything aside from one's immediate self-gratification. That is the religion of today. No clearer than in many Greek youth. Why? Because the parents were of the anti-Hitler liberalism push and hippee generations. Let's face it, the baby boomers (of which I am one) have done nothing but wreak havoc on everything they've touched, including our societies.

This new "religion" compounded by racial intermixing is, as Wotan aptly states, a death knell for us as a culture and race of people. I firmly believe Greeks have lost a tremendous amount by either forcably or electively intermixing with many of the different ethnicities that Thanos mentions above. In a mere several centuries, Greeks went from creators of civilizations and inventors of many disciplines to bouzouki players and chicken souvlaki restaurateurs. Nearly everyone I knew growing up was in the restaurant business. My father was not, he was a tailor. Though the smartest damn tailor I ever knew. Thankfully the generations following have gone on into many higher level fields of study and continue to do so with their children. I'd like to think this a truer sign of Greeks and a regression towards the mean.

Now the left wants to mix the entire western world with third worlders. Barbarians that Gyge stated and Flux above is trying to warn us not to offend because they "may leave". If only! This is NOT evolution, Thanos. This is an orchestrated and deviously calculated effort to destroy an entire race of people. Nothing more. In the end, there will be no more rememberances of Plato, Aristotle, Herodotus, Mozart, Bach, Tchaikovsky, Dostoevsky, Currie, Edison, Fermi, Vivaldi, and on and on. There will only be statues of Nelson Mandela erected in Trafalgar Square. Or how about Desmond Tutu, Mugabe, Erdogan, Kofi Anan or some other NON-European to appease the invading hordes.

When one is confronted by a decision on which avenue to partake, this little nibble of insight may help you make up your minds. The nationalist and ethnocentric premise, if ever proven wrong will not have done any harm to the people it was meant to protect. The egalitarian premise, if proven wrong (actually clearly proved wrong to me and many) will have done TREMENDOUS HARM to the people. IRREVERSIBLE HARM. Genetic undoing is impossible. This is all you need to remember. One ideology wants you to close your eyes, ears, mouths and just "believe" their way is right, the only problem is they won't be around to atone for their crimes against humanity. Pity that!

Thanos,

To answer your immigrant assertion that they can be made to be Greek etc. This can only happen IF the degree of immigrations is so small and so methodical and controlled that it allows for the engulfment of these immigrants. It allows them to become immersed in their new home and then be interbred with citizens of their new home. I am not totally against some degree of outbreeding because it is a fact of human nature to want what you do not have. Though the current state is 1) not natural, 2) immigration is allowed to occur in massive amounts and 3) the egalitarians WANT the immigrants to maintain their culture and identity. The only suppression occurs on our part. That is not only not natural but nefarious.

Flux,

Thanks for the "warning". We'll survive and no need to give it so much worry.

Funny thing, this ethnic pride from invaders. I always hear how blacks are super duper proud to be black and "African". Same for Mexicans, Indians, Pakistani etc. They all come from hell holes and none of them ever want to go back to their native lands. Especially blacks and their incessant whining about mother Africa. During my arguments with these people, the topic has come up about going back to where you came from and I'm the only one who has ever agreed to go back to Europe. None of these diversitoids ever want to or agree to. Wonder why? How about you Flux? Wanna go back to Turkey or Persia or wherever? Or is it that you're "Greek" now?

"Flux above is trying to warn us not to offend because they "may leave"

I think maybe you should read the Cavafy poem again. Nil points for interpretaion.

To ethno
As I suspected the whole poem, (by a very great Greek poet indeed) went right over your single pixel intellect. Never mind. To reiterate: I am proud of being human, not where I come from or where I'm going. You obviously need a hell of lot of cusions to let you sleep at night.

Diva,

Please do not patronize me. My understanding of the poem is that the Romans depict the kind of people that have reached the peak of their power, civilisation and knowledge. Now they suffer from the same old routine of repeating the same life, a life without anything new or exciting. And who should come to the rescue but lo and behold the barbarians. These barbarians are the only ones that could bring a change in their lives, provide some spice and kill this intolerable boredom. They will simplify the lives of the Romans, and for this change the Romans are happy to fully relinquish their national pride and their sense of selfcontrol.

And I do believe Cavafy was Egyptian and not Greek, though I could be wrong.

So Flux, I take it from your answer, it is another NO from the egalitarians? How surprising.

He was Greek born in Alexandria, Egypt

I have to intercede on behalf of literature (lord, how arrogant of me!). As noted, Kavafy (Kavafis) was greek, born in Alexandria, Egypt when there was a great and thriving greek community there. The cartier Greq (pardon the possibly misspelled french)was a beautiful part of town, with mansions and parks and promenades, better than Greece itself (and - sorry to say - definitely better than the "arapika", the egyptian parts of town). It's a strange, mystical, epic, beautiful and tragic part of greek history and human culture, one certainly worth reading more about.

As for the poem, yes. In part that's what is says. But the main point is - I think - this: "Why has our society stopped working? Why have we given up? Why are we producing no work anymore, no art, no literature? Why has everything stopped?" The answer in the poem, nay the excuse, are the barbarians. The "outsiders" (whether people, influences, ideas, it matters not) are to blame. We have given up, because of the threat they pose.

And the tragic conclusion, so magnificently conceived by the poet... there are no barbarians, there have never been; and the sloth, the decline of our society, the defeat, are our own doing and our own fault.

And now what are we going to do? (The barbarians were) a certain solution.

A great piece of poetry, a legacy for all mankind, best enjoyed in greek of course, but good of Flux to post it. Thanks.

We'd better open our eyes wide and look through the various webs of treachery - left, right and center.

Thanks Thanos for the interpretation of the poem. You may be right, and probably are. I've never been an artsy type. Rare do you find minds tuned for the hard sciences and the arts. It's usually either or and I am the former.

Regardless, we do not need to make public policy on the ideals of poets and artists. They have this uncanny knack of being extremely leftist. In my opinion.

I agree there is treachery on both sides of the aisle, center I'm not too sure about. Though true rightists are hard to find. Most "right" politicians of today, and especially in the US with Bush, are leftists. We have been in a leftist society for decades if not nearly a century. It's hard to maintain true conservative ideals engulfed in leftism.

Getting back to immigration, want to see the "new" Greeks if Greece allows immigration to go on? Here is Greece's future...

Aristotles of the future

This is a public school classroom in Canada. Toronto, I believe. Look at all the "Canadians". Look at the token white child. How precious surrounded by all that "diversity".

SeaWitch, I can bet my life your classroom was not like this.

Thanos, I never did get back to you about this statement of yours...

So, basically we agree that the only way to save Greece is to institute a dictatorship.

This was in response to my "solutions" to the immigration problem affecting Greece and Europe. I do not see how you came to the "dictatorship" conclusion. I think you are overreacting to the possible unpleasant choices we have to make in order to preserve ourselves, though preservation is a must and the end goal. Being ethnically and racially aware does not equate to dictatorial rule. Is Japan a dictatorship? India? Israel? How about Denmark, Switzerland, or Holland? Denmark and Switzerland have political parties that are ethnocentric and anti-immigration. It is a far cry of what needs to be done, however they at least have taken the appropriate steps to slow down, and in Denmark's case come to a near halt of immigration. These places have parties that listen to their people and want to preserve their countries. Holland, after the Van Gogh atrocity has become more hard lined and has even taken steps to deport the Muslims that are illegal. That is a start as well towards preservation.

We do not need a dictatorship to enact policies that favor nationalism. That is a strawman that has been ingrained in us ever since the second world war. Another form of control over the masses. If you have pride in your country and ethnicity then you must be a closet Hitler. I've heard it way too many times to be "coincidence". Where do you think people learn these stock retorts? You're a psychiatrist, tell me what you know about indoctrination and subliminal messaging. There you'll find your answers.

Ethno...that picture is not of a Canadian classroom but a local youth centre...the St. Jamestown Youth Centre. It's indicated by a sign in the upper left hand corner of the photo. And I am quite happy to see their beautiful, smiling faces. As for the ethnic composition of my classrooms in my school...it was pretty much the same...except instead of Africans and Asians, they were Lebanese, Indian and Greek, Czech and Polish.

Aso says Japan is nation of 'one race'

FUKUOKA (Kyodo) Internal Affairs and Communications Minister Taro Aso has called Japan a "one race" nation, an expression similar to a controversial statement in 1986 by then Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone, sources close to the minister said Monday.
In a speech during a ceremony at the new Kyushu National Museum in Dazaifu, Fukuoka Prefecture, on Saturday, the sources said Aso described Japan as having "one nation, one civilization, one language, one culture and one race. There is no other nation (that has such characteristics)."


Japan Times

They don't seem to have a major moral dilemma here.

SeaWitch,

And I am quite happy to see their beautiful, smiling faces.

With all due respect, I cannot fathom anyone normal that would want to wish ill will on children. I've even said before that I do not hold any great animosity for the adult immigrants because they are being encouraged to come by our elites. That isn't the issue, is it? The issue is that Greece (and Canada or any western nation really) will no longer be Greece if that picture became a reality in Greece, would it? My mistake about the community center vs school, but it is irrelevant anyway.

As for the ethnic composition of my classrooms in my school...it was pretty much the same...except instead of Africans and Asians, they were Lebanese, Indian and Greek, Czech and Polish.

Thirty or so years ago, when you were probably the age of the children in the picture, Canada was white as the driven snow with most of the people being Anglo-Saxon or Francophones. That is, European. While Canada still is mostly European throughout, the major cities are definitely not. The government is intent on changing that as well. Canada was Canada out of a great empathy and tolerance for one another. That is what made it even better than the US by most standards. Its compassion and extensive social net that took care of its own. Just WTF do those young faces, or more importantly their parents, know of this uniqueness that was Canada spawned out of Anglo-Saxon ideals? Hmmm?

Is this what we've become? Just nomads on great land masses? The culture behind the race is of no importance? My house really isn't my house and anyone can come in and take a crap? Is that the wave of the future?

Race is real, race is durable. Japan asserts her identity, her racial identity, congratulations to the Japanese for protecting their genes and the practice of racial hygiene. The Japanese minister Aso declared that :"Japan is one nation, one civilization, one language, one culture, one race. There is no other nation that has such characteristics" ( if I had ommited the word Japan, it sounds very much like Greece) This political correcteness ( political cowardice) and the brotherhood of man, and the mendacious lie that race does not exist and populations are intercheangeable it's a dogma accepted and implemented in white countries ONLY. Immigration/invasion into white countries by non whites it's a monstrosity of diabolical dimensions . In its trail this invasive incursion brings widespread miscegeneation in Europe . If unchecked, stopped and reversed, it can only mean the end of whites as a distinct people, only of whites. Whites are fewer than ten percent of the world's population and in a few generations they wouuld be gone. The other races, black, brown, yellow, far more numerous than whites, would remain intact.

A catastrophe is threatening our living space, something our ancestors spilled and bled white for us to inherit.

Immigration of the dark/brown/yellow masses into Europe is the cancerization of the social fabric of our societies. When the thirld world consolidates its invasion of the European homelands ( I trust we Greeks can prevent out country from being swept under)a genocidial machinery would have then been established. Already we witness entire European neighbourhoods being ethnically cleansed by non white hordes. In France alone 20.000 cars are firebombed each year by "accultured" ( they have the audacity and shamelesness to call themselves Frenchmen) muslim gangs.
Are Greeks going to wait for this subculture to enter their society ?

The flag issue on Oxi day is the tip of the iceberg. The foreigner has been allowed and tolerated to have become a political factor thanks to our Psychotic Mafia governing us.Wrong, a thousand times wrong .

Greece fought mighty empires in our history, brought light and civilization ,evicted the Mongol Turks after a 400 year occupation, repelled the Italian -German invasion, and now we seem to be powerless to prevent our small homeland from being burglarised by hordes of brown,black, and yellow Barbarians ( thanks Gyge for the term) and steal our flag on Oxi day .

Justiniano, welcome to the conversation. Please take the time to read through the comments posted above, because it seems you just came and posted a small speech, without either offering new arguments (or any for that matter) or countering arguments posted before.

"burglarised by hordes of brown,black, and yellow Barbarians ( thanks Gyge for the term) and steal our flag on Oxi day "

Justiniano, resorting to repeating the "babarian" theme is a bit immature don't you think?

If you had actually read the article, the flag is carried by the student with the top grade. It is not stolen from you.

I can't believe I'm making the 97th reply on this blog. It seems the comments have spiraled so beyond the original blog theme, it's unreal.

But as I see it, this is the way things are at the moment. The kid with the highest grade gets the honor to carry the flag. If they want to carry it, great. If they don't, pass it onto the kid who does. If Greek parents have a problem with an immigrant carrying the flag, well encourage your kid to actually do well at school next year so (s)he can have the honor. Don't bitch because your kid didn't make the grade.

What really amazes me is there are people in this thread expressing opinions on Greece, Greeks, immigrants in Greece who have absolutely no idea whats going on here. I sometimes wonder who or what their sources are. I'm guessing the internet or possibly friends who tell them on the phone "things are getting so bad here"

These kinds of people wave around their USA / Canadian / British passports and then still claim to be Greek. That doesn't wash with me. I don't buy into this 'Greek-American', 'Greek-Canadian' or 'Greek-Australian' rubbish. These people's parents jumped ship and decided to have and raise their kids in a different land. There kids probably visited Greece but will have seen no more of Greece than your average tourist.

These kinds of people I believe are foreigners. Although these foreigners complain about 'legal' immigrants who live in Greece. It absolutely amazes me.

I think as with any arguement, if you want to see if it holds water. You can take it to the simplest form. If you believe legal immigrants in Greece should pack up and go home (wherever that is) then surely with the same arguement, all the immigrants in the States should do exactly the same thing but that wouldn't happen because the states offers those kinds of people too good a lifestyle.

Anyway I think the comments have gone round in circles many times now. I don't really think there's anything new to say.

It seems to me that some individuals are having problems when I refer to foreigners of the wrong sort as Barbarians.

It has stimulated discussion and I see a profusion of messages which show a keen interest on the subject. I am happy to see the real Greek spirit standing up in a non compromising, non negotiating stance on the Flag issue.

The subject has touched a raw nerve showing how deep the issue is and the awareness thereof . The thread has become very lively and instructive.


It brings forth the degree of healthy rejection Greeks have for an invasion pattern, which has has spiralled out of context, and it is aiming at the invasion of our soil, under the guise of a refugee, assylum beggars, or some other convoluted contortion of a dsignation which reduced to its bare bones sends a message of " I am here to stay, you have an obligation to welcome me, and I shall dispossess you of your country and replace your people piecemeal because I have thousands and thousands more from where I hail waiting to follow me".

It also betrays the situational crisis that the immigration issue is no longer a problem to be addressed over a cup of coffe but it has now become a matter of life and death struggle for the nation. Carrying the flag is a side issue of the larger drama unfolding before our eyes. There are many who don't see it in that light;if they don't care about their homeland, their nation, their race, their ancestors, their legacy, neither will the Barbarian. Demography is destiny.

It is unfortunate that some contributions display a lighthearted vein in appearing to treat our national tribulations in a disdainful manner. Comparing the emmigration projects that build and developed the newly discovered continents , continents that were discovered by Europeans built and turned into flourishing oasis by European immigration, to our invasion by the Barbarians is a fundamental error of judgment.

The european emmigration built nations and countries, the present immigration patterns carries the seeds of destruction and decay within. Otherwise take a look at street scenes in Athens, Madrid, London,Paris etc.

It is only from 1970 onwards that an "immigration problem" has reared its ugly head in the West. The basis on which immigration suddenly has become a major issue ( immigration was never a problem before when it was European immigration) is thanks to the opening of doors, a mistaken and grievous error, to the inexhaustible masses of the thirld world non-white immigration.

Anyone proposing, defending ,aiding and abetting non white invasion into Greece, is doing a disservice to his nation and his race. Immigration, like the one we have now, is a scourge our nation can dispense with, we have a large unemployed and underemployed pool of Greek nationals. Who is thinking about them ? Definitely not the Barbarian, nor our august ministers in government.
Greece is not Australia, Greece is our beutiful land inherited by greeks for greeks and greeks for the diaspora. We are not a project nation, we are not in the enterpirse of building a nation like Australia, Canada, USA, new countries devoid of centuries old history and traditions.

The same crisis affects other nations in Europe and like some contributions have made clear time is running out.

What a convoluted post by EllasDevil.

If Greek parents have a problem with an immigrant carrying the flag, well encourage your kid to actually do well at school next year so (s)he can have the honor. Don't bitch because your kid didn't make the grade.

How about doing both? Teaching, promoting, and to a certain degree expecting the child to do well in school, or at least try their hardest AND making sure he/she competes against ONLY other Greek kids. I do not think Greek parents would be so irate if the flag bearer was another Greek kid with the highest grades. Maybe a little. It's the "foreigner" aspect that is the issue.

These kinds of people wave around their USA / Canadian / British passports and then still claim to be Greek. That doesn't wash with me. I don't buy into this 'Greek-American', 'Greek-Canadian' or 'Greek-Australian' rubbish. These people's parents jumped ship and decided to have and raise their kids in a different land. There kids probably visited Greece but will have seen no more of Greece than your average tourist.

These kinds of people I believe are foreigners.


My parents and most others who are of my parents generation did NOT "jump ship". They left shortly after the civil war and Greece was not a rich country then (nor is it really now) and their choice was either starvation or to leave. Them leaving actually helped Greece, your parents, and you though that has sailed over your head, huh?

What I find funny is that I, being Greek-American, am probably more Greek and more patriotic than you. THAT'S funny. You snivel and sneer at us who grew up somewhere else, yet have travelled back home all the time, maintain our language, maintain our culture, maintain traditions, spread them out for others to enjoy and we're not Greek, eh? LOL I bring my children to Greece every summer for a month so they can be "non-Greeks" just like their father. We still have property in Greece and I have purchased another place as well for a vacation within a vacation. I probably add more to the Greek GDP in my one month a year than you do all year. I'm planning on retiring in Greece and will not be siphoning any pension from the country and you have the nerve to tell me I'm not Greek? I can assure you that I know more and care more about Greece than you, which is painfully obvious.

And the "foreigner" slight is just too much to tolerate. I've seen you side with non-Greeks in the blogsphere with your appeals for peace and harmony as you treat them as countrymen, yet we are foreigners? Maybe Albanian-Greek or Turkish-Greek or African-Greek has a better ring to your ears? You need to screw your head on straight boy. In your incessant yearning for that next party, nite club, sexcapade, you've lost sight of the fact that it is YOU who has become NON-Greek, or at least an embarrassment to the history of Greece and not us "foreigners".

It seems to me that some individuals are having problems when I refer to foreigners of the wrong sort as Barbarians.

It has stimulated discussion and I see a profusion of messages which show a keen interest on the subject. I am happy to see the real Aztec spirit standing up in a non compromising, non negotiating stance on the Flag issue.

The subject has touched a raw nerve showing how deep the issue is and the awareness thereof . The thread has become very lively and instructive.


It brings forth the degree of healthy rejection Aztecs have for an invasion pattern, which has has spiralled out of context, and it is aiming at the invasion of our soil, under the guise of a friend or a superior being, or some other convoluted contortion of a dsignation which reduced to its bare bones sends a message of " I am here to stay, you have an obligation to welcome me, and I shall dispossess you of your country and replace your people piecemeal because I have thousands and thousands more from where I hail waiting to follow me".

It also betrays the situational crisis that the immigration issue is no longer a problem to be addressed over a cup of xocolatl but it has now become a matter of life and death struggle for the nation. Carrying the flag is a side issue of the larger drama unfolding before our eyes. There are many who don't see it in that light;if they don't care about their homeland, their nation, their race, their ancestors, their legacy, neither will the Barbarian. Demography is destiny.

It is unfortunate that some contributions display a lighthearted vein in appearing to treat our national tribulations in a disdainful manner. Comparing the emmigration projects that build and developed the newly discovered continents , continents that were populated by our ancestors built and turned into flourishing oasis by them, to our invasion by the Barbarians is a fundamental error of judgment.

The aztec emmigration built nations and countries, the present immigration patterns carries the seeds of destruction and decay within. Otherwise take a look at street scenes in Athens, Madrid, London,Paris etc.

It is only from Xihuitl (1506, http://www.azteccalendar.com/calendar-calculator.html) onwards that an "immigration problem" has reared its ugly head from the West. The basis on which immigration suddenly has become a major issue ( immigration was never a problem before when it was Aztec immigration) is thanks to the opening of doors, a mistaken and grievous error, to the inexhaustible masses of the old world white immigration.

Anyone proposing, defending ,aiding and abetting white invasion into the Aztec Empire, is doing a disservice to his nation and his race. Immigration, like the one we have now, is a scourge our nation can dispense with, we have a large unemployed and underemployed pool of Aztec nationals. Who is thinking about them ? Definitely not the Barbarian, nor our august ministers in government.
The Aztec Empire is not the Zapotec, the Aztec Empire is our beutiful land inherited by Aztecs for Aztecs and Aztecs in our various outposts and colonies. We are not a project nation, we are not in the enterpirse of building a nation like the Olmecs, new countries devoid of centuries old history and traditions.

The same crisis affects other nations in our continent and like some contributions have made clear time is running out.



I could not resist the temptation. Gyge's piece could be rewritten, altering just the names for any culture on this planet. For every culture there are "others", "barbarians", who need to be kept out.

And of course I could not help but smile sadly at statements like The european emmigration built nations and immigration was never a problem before when it was European immigration. No, no it was never a problem for Hernan Cortes and the rest of the animals who landed in the New World. Kind of a problem though for millions of natives, starting with the Aztecs and going on and on and on, north and south in the continent. But we don't really care about other cultures, do we. That is the main trait of the ultra-nationalist, the racist. He won't "walk a mile" in someone else's moccasins. Even worse, he's unable to. A flawed human being.

P.S.: I copied the exact same post Gyge made and my alterations are in italics. How generic indeed...

"My parents and most others who are of my parents generation did NOT "jump ship". They left shortly after the civil war and Greece was not a rich country then (nor is it really now) and their choice was either starvation or to leave."

I think this is the way most immigrants arrive in a foreign country.

"yet have travelled back home all the time, maintain our language, maintain our culture, maintain traditions, spread them out for others to enjoy"

And this is how most other immigrants bahave in their adopted country.

If I had said the same thing I would expect half a dozen people would have jumped down my throat. It always seems that there are different rules for everyone else.

Oh and I wanted to be the 100th comment on this post. Congratulations to SeaWitch on the longest and most controversial post on a Greek blog.

Oops, Thanos beat me to it while I was writing with two more posts. Damn.

I still think the Greek nationalists are missing the crucial point. Why are these so-called "barbarians" taking Greek jobs and doing better in Greek schools and "taking over" Greece? Because, perhaps, Greeks aren't good enough.

Ethno himself admits that to make a good living, to help the Greek economy, to put back more in his country than Greeks who live on Greek soil, he has to live and work in the U.S. Greeks who live in Greece can't make enough to contribute properly, aside from taxes (well, except for people in the government who take bribes and steal money and whatever they are doing to have a good life, but I highly doubt they put it back into the Greek economy).

This reality distresses me, and I am not Greek, but someone who has spent her life reading and studying about Greeks (granted, ancient Greeks but still). I think it is a damn shame for a society that was so integral to the "birth of civilization" is failing so miserably in modern life.

Nationalists will claim this is because of the immigrants, but is it really, or is this just a way to make excuses for what Greeks can't (won't) do?

You need to screw your head on straight boy. In your incessant yearning for that next party, nite club, sexcapade, you've lost sight of the fact that it is YOU who has become NON-Greek, or at least an embarrassment to the history of Greece and not us "foreigners".

Mmm... a sexcapade, chance'd be a fine thing! Where would I get me one of those :-)

Thanos,

You're not going to get away so easily. The only thing generic is your view of the situation. Your relegation to the whims of "evolution". You're being disingenuous at worst or naive at best when you try to equate all migrations of all eras as "walking in someone else's shoes". In the eras gone by, people migrated for a multitude of reasons and one of them was for discovery and land conquest. The laws of life at the time were not the laws of today. Funny you should use Aztecs due to they being quite a brutal bunch. The Aztecs thought Cortez was a God because their mythology foretold of a white skinned God. It wasn't Cortez who practiced mass human sacrifice, it was the Aztecs. It wasn't the British who buried thousands of servants with a Royal, it was the Chinese. It wasn't the Romans who pillaged and plundered, it was the Romans who brought peace and uniform laws with them so trade could be conducted in an orderly fashion. We brought high art and a sense of a beauty. We brought the ability to farm, the ability to build cities and the means to care for the poor and infirm.

Now your "walking shoes" metaphore. It is one thing to understand another people's plight and a completely separate thing to sacrifice one's own people and country to "save" these shoeless people. Europe has never been an immigrant continent unless we go back to the Indo-Europeans which was quite a long time ago and a useless comparison because, just like the settlers of the New World, they were not immigrants. What you've relegated yourself to and have plead to the heartstrings of Europeans is to do just that. To sacrifice our very existance so we can remain "unflawed". This is simply incorrect. You, a scientist of sorts, should understand evolution and the survival of the fittest. Tell me what good would it be for the rest of the planet to annhilate one of, and some believe the ONLY, cultures to produce and advance mankind? To fill the continent with peoples who never created a written language? These will be your new Europeans? Hardly. They will over time, be it decades or a century or two, turn Europe into the wonderous third world with all its glory. So I reject your humanitarian plea for IT is the flawed approach. Not the human nature approach of survival.

Diva,

I think this is the way most immigrants arrive in a foreign country.

And this is how most other immigrants bahave in their adopted country.


I knew when I was writing that post I would have to answer to you. Hardly and hardly is my answer to the above two statements of yours. Most immigrants of today are not being asked to come by the decision of the people. They are encouraged by the governments against the will of the people and are doing it mostly, illegally. Over 1 million Mexicans invade the US per year illegally. The mentality, which was reiterated on a PBS show last night that I watched on "American" language, stated that Mexicans have a plan of reconquista or reconquest of what was theirs. Not just the southwest any longer but the ENTIRE US. This is not the immigrant of my parents time, for sure. This is a hostile invader and in a different time would be treated as such with execution. Same goes for the Islamization and Africanization of Europe. These people are not interested in blending in because they won't and can't. Recently Spain was forced to repel and expel tens of thousands of Africans that stormed the border with Morocco. So no, we are not make equal comparisons. Your ideology has blinded you of the facts. The unpleasant facts that you want to ignore because they just do fit your ideology.

Melusina,

Ethno himself admits that to make a good living, to help the Greek economy, to put back more in his country than Greeks who live on Greek soil, he has to live and work in the U.S. Greeks who live in Greece can't make enough to contribute properly, aside from taxes (well, except for people in the government who take bribes and steal money and whatever they are doing to have a good life, but I highly doubt they put it back into the Greek economy).

I've mentioned this before, however to quickly reiterate, it is advanced liberalism and mass immigration into welfare states that have caused the problems of Europe and the west in regards to birthrate and a pathological tolerance and lack of ambition that has engulfed us. Correct the two and the problem of unambitious Greeks will correct itself.

As to one must live outside of Greece in order to be productive is incorrect. It is the liberal mentality and super-individualistic mantra due to advanced liberalism that has created a generation (or two) of sloths. There are productive people in Greece. Unfortunately many of the youth just want to have a good time as if it is owed them. And where would they get these notions? Certainly not from me.

EllasDevil,

Stop being stupid. How old are you? What have you done or are going to do with your life? Any ambitions or are you content to blog and comment about things you know nothing about?

"I knew when I was writing that post I would have to answer to you"

I don't think you answered though? You just came back with some more unrelated "facts"
I was asking how your parents emmigration differed from the vast majority of immigration to Greece including my own. And how your behaviour of keeping your customs and traditions in your adopted country would have forced a different response if I had said it.

A real answer would be appreciated. I also don't think dismissing ellasdevil because he may or may not be young is very clever. He doesn't agree with you that's all.

To Thanos and his italics.

I recommend you do not copy someone else's text and introduce your italics. It is a sign of an indolent attitude and lack of ethics.

Hernan Cortez, Francisco Pizarro, Cuernavaca, Garay, Pedro Mendoza, Pedro Valdivia ,Osorio, these were conquistadores, these were real european men who vastly outnumbered by the savages they encountered, (savages, decadent left overs of what they tell us were mighty Aztec,Maya or Inca empire, empire's in which human sacrifice, cannibalism and filets of tender virgin's heart were served as desserts at Monctezuma's, Atahualpa's banquet tables ) exerted enormous human energy and sacrifices to conquer a continent to legate it to their descendants, crown, king and European mankind. The jesuits and religious orders followed them and built the South American continent.Where swamps existed, cities were created, followed with a vigorous program of european immigration the empty land was populated and civilization introduced.Yes it was European civilization where deserts and deserts of empty land were discovered, colonized and settled.

It was European immigration, whites that built and developed the continent, not Africans, not Chinese, not Indians, not Arabs nor Pakistanies.

Today's European men who pen missives, copying texts and adding italics ( with a superficial statutory sprinkling of politically correct historical fiction)would have given up the quest at the first gust of wind . Cortez's famous "noche triste" 120 valiant spaniards, ( not of the kind that will fold their arms at the avalanche of a few hundred African invaders at Ceuta and Melilla) thwarted and army of 6000 Aztec warriors, made their exit from the then Mexico City and later return to conquer it. These men were men of a race that recognized and enemy when they saw one, men who were loyal to their race and nation. Heroes, real heroes, not patsies.

To call them Animals is the supreme folly of an ignorant mind.

To those compatriots who wish to see their country conquered the best plan of action is to do nothing, stay as you are. We have an effective government that is leading us down to the border of the abyss, multiculturalism, multiracialism, racial mongrelization, degeneracy of our moral values, distortion of our thousand year old history, are the golden pearls of diversity.

Stay calm, Karamanlis, Papandreu and the current political clique are taking us to a destiny where many of our enemies failed to take us in the past through force of arms.

Soon the rebirth of the Second Ottoman Empire would be rolling across Europe, we in Greece will be the first to feel the brunt of its deadly weight. What the Ottomans failed to achieve by force of arms, they'll accomplish their goal through the immigration gate to Europe. Islamization would follow.

A nation without nationalism is like a body without a soul.

If the issue of immigration and flag bearing is put to a referendum, the overwhelming majority of Greeks would vote for sending the Barbarians home, keeping Greece Greek and the flag to be borne by a Greek.

But the government lackeys are not short sighted, a referendum on visceral issues which does not conform with the Globalists agenda would be tantamount to detonating a grenade under their soft and cushy bottoms.

Under such scenario the race traitors ,trucklers, gracchite , Pussyfooters and nation sell outs would be isolated and bereft of any support.

I was a little confused by the reply, perhaps because I am a little tired. I'll try to break it down, bear with me.

The only thing generic is your view of the situation. Your relegation to the whims of "evolution". [..] try to equate all migrations of all eras as "walking in someone else's shoes". In the eras gone by, people migrated for a multitude of reasons and one of them was for discovery and land conquest.

I mentioned evolution in previous posts, not in this one though, I did not have evolution in mind specifically. As for "walking in someone else's shoes", I did not liken any migration to that, I merely meant that one must be able to see the other side. Not just see it, but be its "advocatus diaboli", really feel the part. Finally, though I wouldn't quite call conquest "migration", I don't disagree... nor did I ever. Masses of people do move around conquering

The laws of life at the time were not the laws of today. Funny you should use Aztecs due to they being quite a brutal bunch. (...) fashion. We brought high art and a sense of a beauty. We brought the ability to farm, the ability to build cities and the means to care for the poor and infirm.

I don't disagree... but you have to agree other cultures brought forth science and things of beauty too. "Our" alphabet is probably phoenecian, egyptians, mesoamericans, romans, chinese, british, all races have some culture, some positive contribution to mankind. As all races have a negative. Lord knows, Greece did its part in warmongering, slaying, enslaving. Granted, not as much as others, but still. Unless I missed the point here - I may have.

Now your "walking shoes" metaphore. It is one thing to understand another people's plight and a completely separate thing to sacrifice one's own people and country to "save" these shoeless people.

I never said anything of the sort. But if you understand someone else's plight, you might be more motivated to help them instead of turn them back. And if you will, on a wider level, religious, karmic, call it what you will, let's remember the story of Darius and Kresus. We might find ourselves (as we have in the past) in a similar plight...

Europe has never been an immigrant continent (..) What you've relegated yourself to and have plead to the heartstrings of Europeans is to do just that. To sacrifice our very existance so we can remain "unflawed".

Actually, Europe has been an immigrant continent until fairly recently. Greeks migrated, Romans migrated, Barbarians roamed, the Goths (all kinds of them) settled many times, the Huns invaded and moved people around, not to mention Franks, Vikings, Moors, Jews and more and more and more. This movement continues to our day with displacement of various people, slavic mostly I suppose for various reasons. Now, you may have meant that Europe has never been a continent for black/yellow immigration. True enough, although slave trade made quite sure that many blacks (and some assorted others) became British, Dutch, Spanish, French citizens (and truly assimilated at that). I did not try to play on any heartstrings, my post just went to show how generic that speech was. Any country, any ethnic group could use it and it would mean the same... not much.

You, a scientist of sorts, should understand evolution and the survival of the fittest. Tell me what good would it be for the rest of the planet to annhilate one of, and some believe the ONLY, cultures to produce and advance mankind? To fill the continent with peoples who never created a written language?

I understand evolution fairly well and without meaning to school you, or anyone, let me remind us all, that evolution - as you noted - is the survival of the fittest. Not necessarily the most cultured, the smartest or the prettiest. Evolution's goal is not to advance mankind, it's a balancing mechanism in nature. Sometimes we arrogantly forget that. Thus, using evolution, yes! Perhaps the Europe of 2200 will be black and yellow. The whites of Europe are dwindling, whilst blacks and asians (to oversimplify) multiply. Which means the latter are better adapted and are making sure that their kind will go on. Now, the last white might die clutching all the riches in the world, surrounded by masterpieces of thought and art. Evolution does not really care.

These will be your new Europeans? Hardly. They will over time, be it decades or a century or two, turn Europe into the wonderous third world with all its glory. So I reject your humanitarian plea for IT is the flawed approach. Not the human nature approach of survival.

With the same caveat, that survival of the fittest does not mean survival of the most cultured, I say again, that my (latest) post was not about evolution, it was not about immigration either really. It just went to show how shallow, albeit boisterous, some voices can be. It also meant to show, that a racist has a low EQ and perhaps not much capacity to adapt. We boast about our achievements, forgetting that others achieved also. We curse their transgressions, while at the same time we are eager to forgive our own. Seeing the "other side" is a major tool of survival, one that not everyone has - and that makes our world a worse place I'm afraid.

I did not say "open all doors and let everyone in", but I do say "empathize", I do say "see the other side" and I do say "help them and through them help yourself". Which reminds me... I saw a couple of posts containing the (ridiculous) notion that Greece (and Europe) don't have "room" for more people - the "lebensraum" theory. 4.5 million greeks live in Athens and another 1.5 in Thessaloniki. So, about 60% of all our population lives in an area barely 5% (if that) of our total landmass. Our agriculture is dwindling. We have no industry. Textiles, small industry, nothing. Everyone is (or aspires to be) in the services sector. If we produce nothing we cannot survive. There is plenty of room for foreigners, as long as we manage them correctly. The same goes for the rest of Europe, whose population is aging and dying out.

As you said... survival of the fittest. We'd better make damn sure we are among the fit - not the old and tired.

"120 valiant spaniards, ( not of the kind that will fold their arms at the avalanche of a few hundred African invaders at Ceuta and Melilla) thwarted and army of 6000 Aztec warriors,"

Armed only with a sharpened piece of fruit.

Ethno,

Stop being stupid? It bothers you that I don't feel the need to bitch at you and go round in big circles? Your first responce just made me laugh. Not all of it because there's a part of it that gave me food for thought but the rest did. It was obviously a personal attack but big deal. I can live with that without the need to hit back.

However thank you for your concern as to my life. I'll give u a couple of details. I'm 25, with degree and masters and working quite happily for the Greek subsidary of a well known international telecommunications company.

As for blogging, I don't have time to write lots and lots of 18 pagagraph replies as believe it or not, I actually have better things to do.

So feel free to attack or nitpick at what I've just wrote. I'm sure it'll just make me smile.

Gyge:

I'm glad my post touched you so deeply. You were offended and a little incensed, hopefully it made you think. My point was not to offend you, obviously.

Ottoman turks never did anything half as bad as what the conquistadores did. To call them bearers of european civilization is to negate, devalue, delete the very notion of civilization itself. They were just that: Bloodthirsty animals, opportunists that stopped at nothing for a little gold. Or a lot. It matters not. It's good for them, that the Aztecs had their "prohpecies", or they would have been annihilated, bravery and all. Perhaps this was all part of the greater plan, but that still does not make the conquistadores heroes.

As for decadence... let's not speak of decadence. The courts of the european kings were brothels and the monasteries of the jesuits even worse. So, they didn't sacrifice humans (or DID they). I don't really see a difference.

In any case, I will assume that your views are a little uninformed (yes, I return the term urging you to read about the "other side") and biased, perhaps out of need to find valiant men, explorers and conquerors. I know, I've looked up to men like that too. Well, not exactly like that...

If my assumption is incorrect, you stand east and I stand west, you preach black and I white. I have nothing to say to a person who honestly believes "subhuman" races should be annihilated and they have nothing to say to me.

As for the second part of your post, I don't disagree. Whether orchestrated or just idiotic there is an effort almost by our government (and not just ours) to alienate us from anything greek. Says a lot about us, that we have proven such easy targets...

Diva,

I’ve answered most of your question in my original reply. Reread it. As to this part…

And how your behaviour of keeping your customs and traditions in your adopted country would have forced a different response if I had said it.

Greek immigrants, as well as Italians, Spaniards, Poles, Germans, Swedes etc all became one over time. Never once did they look to make their culture supreme,
ask for favouritism, expect handouts to “survive”, and were never an ongoing open sore to the host nation. Never. That can’t be said for many of the new immigrants, especially black.


EllasDevil,

However thank you for your concern as to my life. I'll give u a couple of details. I'm 25, with degree and masters and working quite happily for the Greek subsidary of a well known international telecommunications company.

Well very good, ED. I am actually quite happy about that and no, I am not being facetious. I truly am happy to see the young doing something with themselves. God knows I didn’t see much this past summer.

No, I do not get bothered because you did not “bitch” at me. However, the reply was simply an example of immaturity with no thought aside from being a smart ass. Malaka, if you will. You know what that means, right? You’re 25 eh? Well that explains a fair amount and probably the combination of that and having a good job/career, you think you have the world by the balls. Hey, that’s normal for your age and again I’m not being insulting. What you do need to understand is that you are still in the idealistic phase of your maturity. You don’t think of dying nor consequences at this age. That comes a little later. Your indoctrination came at the hands of an even more liberal ideology than us in the west. Europe is an “anything goes if it feels good” kind of place. Hopefully you’ll mature into someone who will value more important things than just fucking around. I’m sure you don’t just fuck around, but you get my drift. Most do, but unfortunately some never do mature. I hope you are the former and not the latter. I was 35 before I started seriously thinking and reading about this subject and the plight of western man.

Out of curiosity, what was it in my post that gave you food for thought?


Thanos,

Whew, where to begin?

Yes other cultures brought forth certain advancements to varying degrees. But who cares? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I think this goes towards the strawman that if you like whites or European derived people, then you MUST be a racist and genocidal maniac. Let’s put that to bed once and for all. I’ve posted numerous times how many other nations/races are extremely protective of their own and no one bats an eye. I am doing what is my absolute human right to do and that is voice my objection to the unfairness and inequality of the situation where a majority of people do not want what is happening yet a few are forging ahead with inter-continental genocide. I do not need to grovel because others helped advanced humanity. I need to stand up for what is a travesty and where our accomplishments are trivialized and/or vilified, and our rights brushed aside.

So the crux is that you want empathy towards others while I want empathy towards us. I can be (and am) empathic without the need to fill our countries with distant and tribal peoples. I see no need for distant immigration for whatever reason. Greeks, and western man in general, needs to feel hungry again, not complacent and fat where the “servants” help us live. Bringing them here will only expediate our demise.

As to evolution, culture is not evolution but race is. Race has put us where we are culturally and ideology will knock us from our pedestal. What we are doing is being anti-evolutionary. We can be protective and empathic simultaneously. It’s not either or.

ethnocentrist -

I thought ellasdevil's comments (#97) were right on the mark.

The 'fact' is, you don't live in Greece, you have no idea what Greece is about except as a vacation getaway (has no illegal alien has ever worked on your lovely summer houses?), and yet you feel perfectly comfortable treating Greece and its problems as if they're a paragraph in an out-of-print history book.

If you really want to save your beloved tribe, try actually experiencing its reality for a few years. (Retirement is too lame and too late, sunshine. Try spending some productive years here.)

And stop posting trashy ad hominems. They diminish you and the rest of us. Not to burst your bubble, but people ARE actually doing you a favor by reading what you write. You're just another small voice on the net and there are lots. I'm almost bored reading you because of the elementary school insults. ('peckers'? 'masturbate you'?) If you and your ideology are so easily provoked, it reveals far more about you as a person than anything else.

And let me tell you why I'm not completely bored reading you just yet. Just yet. I sense, despite everything, you have a curious mind. You're interested in ideas, and you've spent some time reading books. I ask, why is this guy here? In this blog. Not surrounded by like-minded followers. Not going tut-tut over this issue or that. Not scolding kameraden for straying a bit from doctrine. But provoking debate, albeit in really offensive terms.

Well, either you want to learn, or you just want to hear yourself talk.

If it's the latter, then I'm honestly sorry for you. If it's the former, then kindly re-read this entire thread and decide if deviousdiva deserves an apology from you and your cabal. Big issues have a way of becoming real personal real quick. She's shown a lot more courage than you or I have by living in this country. We are not abstract concepts, we're just people. Drop the heartlessness competition, ethnoc, be a human being.





Your peculiar ideology: I think you're like the generals who always fight the last war - you've taken the solutions of the past as eternal truths. The generals in Serbia and Croatia tried applying those 19th century solutions not long ago (where were you then?), the results were absolutely disastrous. Even President Clinton was moved enough to bomb the place. If you have not experienced war and violence on a mass scale, try spending some time in Serbia or Croatia, talk to the people whose lives were upended by the grand nationalist, 'race' talk of their leaders - the people who sacrificed their children, husbands, brothers for...what: dead people, mafia-style civics, pariah status in Europe? I think you'll find some doubters. You can't fake that, you know, you've led a privileged life in the US, ethnoc, and it shows; here in the complicated Balkans, things do not have simple solutions. The age of ethnic cleansing, 'discovery' and 'conquest' is dead, RIP. Let it stay dead.

Let me ask you this - do you realize that the only solutions you propose involve mass murder?

Even if your weird ideas about race and biology were true (which they aren't), do you truly want your children to kill human beings every day? Because that's what it'll take. Do you really want your parents' country (!) to abandon its historic values of knowledge and civic responsibilty in favor of the uzi, the AK-47, the M-16? Answer this, ethnoc. Your kids will be the ones in the snipers' nests, defending your grand, privileged rhetoric. Every day, all day, dropping targets, for many, many years. And make no mistake - your kids won't be killing an invading army of barbarian hordes with knives in their teeth . They'll be killing lots of women and children. Desperate ones.

Because this is what you're advocating. Look at those awful incidents in Morocco. Those people threw themselves at the fence knowing they'd be shot. Think about that for a minute. You should know just from reading the news that death is sometimes not the worst thing in the world.

What would it take for you to throw yourself on a fence like that? A lot, probably.

And you want to make your kids pull the trigger. Again and again and again. All day every day, for many, many years. Shame on you.

So Greece should survive as Greece. We agree on that. We do not agree on what that means. If survival depends on the daily murder and abject humiliation of poor, desperate people, then - for me - Greece will not be Greece. It will be Dachau in reverse.

I live here. I don't want my islands surrounded by barbed wire. I don't want my country to stuff people in container bins. I don't want daily executions for visa violations (as you have suggested). And I certainly don't want Greece to become just a vacation oasis for Europeans and Americans. I want the people of Greece to survive the 21st century as human beings, not ethnocentrists.

Scarfi,

Thanks for the post. It was heartfelt and that came through. I believe it was a bit thick with hyperbole, but nevertheless it came with earnest. I’m not here to hear myself speak nor learn. I’m not above learning as I learn every single day, however the lessons from the opposite side have been told and retold and they continue to fall short of reality, in my opinion. I am here to be a voice for people who have heard nothing of my side. Who have been spoonfed lies and egalitarian dogma from birth. To tweak interest in readers that may be curious to the workings of the current polity and why we find ourselves in the position we are in. I was completely dumbfounded years ago as to why no one was listening to the majority and things were turning upside down. I started reading and learning and I am only doing for others what my “educators” did for me. It’s only a fluke that I came to these blogs really. Lucky SeaWitch and Diva. This topic exploded because it is a volatile topic, as you can see.

What you fail to see Scari is that there IS a war going on. There is an all out war against western man. Only in western countries is this atrocious war being fought. It is not fought with bullets (YET) but with ideology, speech suppression, and mind control. You speak of ethnic cleansing, yet you fail to take it that next step to realize that WE are being ethnically cleansed. I’ve been to Athens, London, Birmingham, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Berlin, Stockholm, Madrid, Sydney and not to mention major cities in the US and Canada and what I want to know is where are all the natives? What happened to them? These cities are no longer representative of the countries they are in, nor their respective people. Make no mistake Scarfi, we have been slated for replacement. When I said “yet” above regarding violence and bullets, this will come from the intolerant leftist ideologues. We have draconian measures heaped upon us if anyone decides to pipe up and I have numerous examples if you wish to see. If or when the time comes when people en mass will have had enough, then you will see real atrocities. You will see mass executions, imprisonment, and terror. The grasp of the left will not be so easily pried loose. I fear this immensely, yet I/we did nothing to make it happen. We are simply acting naturally when we have been lied to and oppressed for so long.

I know you want to bring it down to the personal level, yet this transcends any single individual. We are talking about entire races of people. Here, let me put it into a perspective you may understand since you do not value European lives so much. Let’s say there is a plan to migrate whites, Asians, south Asians, and Arabs into Africa. Slowly but surely, the native Africans will be forced to move out and eventually these outlying areas are invaded as well. The Africans keep fleeing yet the room becomes tighter. These Africans will not be able to breed as they have been due to the strain of this mass migration. They are not allowed to speak nor complain about this. They aren’t allowed to be amongst only black people and must accept the diversity while whites and others are allowed to form racial groups to further their cause in their new home. They aren’t allowed to call any organization of theirs “black”. Black is nothing but a fantasy they are told and retold. Black is a sign of hate they are told. Despite being removed from areas, they are expected to keep working and supporting the mass migration. Eventually over time, say 100 or so years, they not only have become a minority in their own countries/continent, but many have ceased to be due to no offspring or intermixing. Eventually, if not complete annihilation of the people, only a few pockets still survive. The rest of the continent is white, asian etc. So what do you think? When can we get this plan going?

So, the reason your plea does not reverberate with me so much is because we are screwed either way and this saddens me to no end. Either we lay down and die at the hands of the non-white hordes or stand up to fight against the invasion and die from our Marxist overlords. There will be bloodshed in the future, Scarfi. It is written...even in the bible.

Speaking of non-white hordes. Cannot anyone put 2 and 2 together? Are all these incidents simply "isolated" events that seem to occur over and over again?


'Violent ethnic war looms' Police say Filipino-Vietnamese tensions are high

Ethan Baron
The Province

Friday, October 21, 2005

A violent ethnic war between Filipino and Vietnamese youths in the Lower Mainland will likely escalate, Vancouver police said yesterday.

"What's even more alarming is that sometimes the intended victims don't even belong to the disputing groups, but just happen to be a member of that community," said police Insp. Kash Heed.

Investigators believe the conflict that has led to a series of bloody incidents started in July, when two Vietnamese youths were attacked, one suffering a broken arm, the other serious leg injuries.

In late July, a non-involved 14-year-old Asian boy was attacked by five Filipino youths because they thought he was Vietnamese, Heed said.

On Aug. 30, young Vietnamese were involved in a drive-by shooting.

On Sept. 8, a staffer at Sir Charles Tupper Secondary School in Vancouver intervened in a knife assault involving members of the two groups.

On Oct. 1, in the 3300-block of Vanness Avenue in Vancouver, six to seven Filipino males attacked a Vietnamese youth, puncturing his liver. About 20 minutes earlier, young Vietnamese had stabbed a Filipino youth.

The violence "boiled to a crescendo" Oct. 8 when members of both gangs went to a dance at the Polish Community Hall on Fraser Street at about 10:30 p.m., said Vancouver youth-services unit Det. Doug Spencer.

"They all knew each of their communities were going to be there," Spencer said.

Six people were stabbed in the ensuing brawl outside the hall, two seriously. One remains in hospital.

"We're fortunate that no one was killed that night," Heed said.

Much of the fighting has taken place near the Joyce SkyTrain station, but other incidents have occurred around the Lower Mainland.

Those involved are aged between 13 and their early 20s. Many are students at Lower Mainland high schools, police said.

"In a lot of cases the older brothers will get involved," Spencer said, adding that females sometimes carry weapons to the fights because male police officers are less likely to search them.

The fights have involved a variety of bladed weapons. The groups commonly favour machetes, swords and illegal switchblades and butterfly knives, police said.


More here

Very nice. Thanks for not insulting my manhood.

I have one you know, I keep it in a huge warehouse over in Spata, by the airport. You know the airport, right?

Progress, you see. People can learn to behave.

But you didn't answer anything. The rhetoric that comes so quickly to you comes up very, very short at times. Alas, copy/paste has limits.

Help me out here, because now I'm really not sure now if you have anything at all to say, even though you're the most articulate racist I've ever met.

You answered none of my points.

Answer them.

WTF?

Does my sincerity in my post somehow translate for you an open invitation to spew venom? You made a point about civility and when it was offered, you resort to being an ass. Very nice Scarfi.

I do NOT cut and paste any original idea. Do not insult me. I make it well known when I do.

I answered your points in my post, though obviously not to your satisfaction. Why don't you summarize what you want me to answer? That way you won't feel the need to attack unprovoked.

Unprovoked? Civility? Ass? You're advocating us killing people, aren't you? I mean - what are you saying, really?

Ethnoc, all your talk about 'race is culture' and 'biological continuity' is the stuff of nightmare. The Germans tried that already, so did the Serbs, it didn't fly then either. If you really want to cast yourself as a decent person in this indecent world, at least remember your history.

Goading others to fight your tabletop battles is cowardice. Plain and simple.

The grand sweep of history requires spinners, perpetrators and a cleanup crew. You wanna organize some perps, go ahead and try. I can guarantee you, though, the cleanup crew's gonna call in with sciatica or something. Schmuck.


My heartfelt post, the Cliffnotes version:



The generals in Serbia and Croatia tried applying those 19th century solutions not long ago (where were you then?), the results were absolutely disastrous. Even President Clinton was moved enough to bomb the place. If you have not experienced war and violence on a mass scale, try spending some time in Serbia or Croatia, talk to the people whose lives were upended by the grand nationalist, 'race' talk of their leaders - the people who sacrificed their children, husbands, brothers for...what: dead people, mafia-style civics, pariah status in Europe? I think you'll find some doubters.

:
Do you really want your parents' country (!) to abandon its historic values of knowledge and civic responsibilty in favor of the uzi, the AK-47, the M-16? Answer this, ethnoc. Your kids will be the ones in the snipers' nests, defending your grand, privileged rhetoric. Every day, all day, dropping targets, for many, many years. And make no mistake - your kids won't be killing an invading army of barbarian hordes with knives in their teeth . They'll be killing lots of women and children. Desperate ones.

And you want to make your kids pull the trigger. Again and again and again. All day every day, for many, many years. Shame on you.

If survival depends on the daily murder and abject humiliation of poor, desperate people, then - for me - Greece will not be Greece. It will be Dachau in reverse.

Oh, I see now.

Even if your weird ideas about race and biology were true (which they aren't), do you truly want your children to kill human beings every day? Because that's what it'll take. Do you really want your parents' country (!) to abandon its historic values of knowledge and civic responsibilty in favor of the uzi, the AK-47, the M-16?. Blah, blah, blah.

And you call what I say, rhetoric? How and why did you come up with mass murder, first and foremost? Stopping immigration is mass murder? Controlling the borders and making it known that asylum seekers are not wanted is mass murder? Maintaining an ethnicity law that Greece is for Greeks is mass murder? I think you've been watching too many Nazi propaganda flicks. I think you are wrong to equate the immigrants of Greece now to the Balkan nightmare that occurred a decade ago. Those conflicts are centuries old and the people living there have done so for generations. That WAS their home and of course they will stay and fight to the death. That is exactly what I am trying to warn you about. Once in, they stay in, like it or not. You are advocating this very mass murder scenario by allowing the continuation of immigration and having foreigners live in Greece for 10 generations. THEN are we going to ask them to leave? Jesus! Think of what you are saying. Greece is small, has relatively few immigrants and they have not lived there for umteen generations. Did you ever think of humanitarian repatriation? Did you ever think of financial compensation to persuade them to leave? Did you ever think of gradual exportation? No, just mass murder and Nazi. That's all. All are unpleasant but infinitely more appealing than your one and only scenario. Now I wouldn't want to be in the UK or Germany's shoes. They have much, much more of a problem.

Just to touch upon the Serb conflict again. Maybe having ethnically different people in your midst is not the best of ideas? Huh? It seems the KLA, which stands for KOSOVO LIBERATION ARMY, sailed over your head. That to me means they wanted to annex a portion of Serbia even after being there for so long, speaking Serbian, and knowing the culture. (Please feel free to substitute Greece for Serbia above.) You see, once Albanian, always Albanian YOU Schmuck. Same goes for Pakistani, Indian, Chinese, African. No difference at all. And please do not mention Clinton around me. The most corrupt president in living memory, next to Bush that is. Bombing Serbia to redirect attention from his little "Monica" transgression. Quite the pillar of decency you've managed to find. I'm sure he inadvertantly let Bosnia and Croatia slip under his "emotional movement".

And this...

Goading others to fight your tabletop battles is cowardice. Plain and simple.

Right. Let's do nothing. Better yet, let's strip the identity of Greeks outside of Greece, because they aren't human after all and give it to "poor people" of any ethnicity who are much more deserving. Let's pretend that ethnic conflicts from time immemorial are simply isolated events and THIS TIME will be different in Greece. Yes, let's do all that.

Look, it is apparently clear you and I do not have much to discuss and I will summarize in point form so there is no question on your part. Unlike your convoluted, rambling message.

1) You are a race denier, which means you deny my very rights and existence.

2) You give precedence to "those poor Africans" in Morocco and all other mewling asylum seekers over me, a fellow countryman and Greek.

3) Even if I wasn't born in Greece, which I was, many of my friends are not, we still are Greek as far as the government is concerned and have all the rights and privileges of the country. Same as you, though you do not have any qualms to expropriate us of our birth rights in order to artificially paste them on "more deserving" poor people.

4) You are a snivelling, venom filled, intolerant Marxist.

You ARE the enemy in my mind. You and the others who think like you. Hope THAT answered your question.

To Ethnocentrist
In case you are under any misapprehensions, the word you use as your tag does not exist. You can be ethnocentric, though god knows why anyone would, but Ethnocentrist, no.
Secondly if you honestly feel happier thinking anyone who doesn't agree with your poisonous, narrow, single cell brain, is a Marxist then you are an even bigger fool than you seem, although god knows that would be hard.
What scarfalonius says is very clear. He asked you a simple question, are you willing to do what you advocate others to do, namely send millions to their death because you want to keep your race pure. If that is indeed what you think, just come out with it and then go form a party. We'll meet on the battlefield. If you are not, go play baseball with your kids and get off trying to sound like a well read intellectual, it doesn't come off. You just make yourself look more and more foolish.

To Thanos

Your post has not touched me at all, erase such preconceived notion from your mind. We are all Greeks after all, blood brothers, we might have our petty differences but our common ancestry unites all in the background.

I simply don't take kindly to plagiarism in any form,in any context,anywhere. A plagiarist is like a common thief.

Your education about the Spanish history of the conquest and civilization of the America's is shallow and non existent,it is laden with grave emotionalism giving the impression that it's sources are based on Hollywood fiction movies and books written by revisionist historians post 1945.

Everything white is bad, everything white has to be devalued, whites have to be made to feel guilty about their history, their past,( in order to facilitate their dispossesion) and in the words of a Harvard lecturer, Ignatief, "the white race needs to be exterminated".

I don't expect any student graduating from a Western university not to hold such a perverted and adulterated view of his own history. The barbarian's grip on education is suffocating.


If you wish to have a balanced perspective of the Conquistadores ,and their epic and glorious civilizational exploits,which makes any sane European feel proud of his heritage, you need to read and study authors from the 18th century and pre 1945 period.

In the square of Lima there is a statue to Francisco Pizarro ( "the Animal"). I would like you to write to the Peruvian authorities ( Peru is 60% indian,20% black, 15% hybrid.) and in special to their president, an Indian, and convey your impression that the Conquistadores were animals, and that the Peruvians should remove the statue of that Animal from the central square in Lima.


I almost fell off my chair when you compared the Ottoman Empire with the civilization crusade of the Spaniards. In most Latin American countries Spain is refered to as the mother country;there is a deep appreciation and underlying love for everything spanish.
I will not be surprised to hear you speak about Turkey being "our mother country". The Turk, the monstrous turk wiped us out of our ancestral homes in Byzantium,they committed genocide, Armenians suffered an even worst fate, Assyrians were made to vanished. So much for the civilizing Ottomans, civilizing with the scimitar, forcing wholesale populations to Islam,( 200000 Greeks massacred in the island of Chios,by the Grand Turk, a famous Dela Croix painting depicts the tragic episode)exacting blood tribute from the enslaved populations.

Today our beloved Greece is under siege, flooded with Barbarians tearing at our vitals and threatening our identity. European nations are wracked by the same diseases sapping their well being; many european nations are beginning to have their own minority problems ( falling native birthrates, unrestricted invasion and the testosterone explosion of the invader) spearheaded by their own liberal public opinion mills and their own insurrectionary Marxist, anarchists cabals. These problems will be compounded in the near future. It seems that if a nuclear war does not destroy us, race suicide will. A stentorian opposition to immigration is denounced as Nazism. Ridiculous but factual. Once that sobriquet is applied it's game set and match. A sophisticated way of applying censorship.

The earth's people are being herded into an ideological pen by advocates of globalism.
Obviously all men have similarities, just as they have differences. But they are never brothers . It is wiser to base our behaviour on this truth than to pretend otherwise. Our ability does not makes us fraternal. Fraternity applies to people who feel close to each other, people of similar race and culture.
To sell brotherhood to men and women of different races , separatede not only by genetics but by obvious differences in religion ,art, language and historical background , is an exercise in futility.
This brotherhood based on slogans, ( Sloganeering by liberals, communists, anarchists, race deniers,Boasian fraudsters )not genes , will snap under the least pressure. The bortherhood of men has a pretty sound, like liberty, fraternity, equality, but at the bottom it is an "ignis fatuus" that has led us, Europeans, and continues to lead us into a quicksand of broken hopes and promises. Communists called upon the proletariat to rise up up and cast off its chains . All such words do is deceive good men by overloading their hearts with false expectations.

In our struggle for existence, and in particular in our Greece there are nobler and higher aims such as preparing to climb the next rung in the evolutionary ladder. Just as homo sapiens evolved from Homo erectus and homo erectus from early hominids ,and earlier hominids from primates , Homo supersapiens "must evolve" from homosapiens. This evolution will be brought to a standstill if we in Greece decide to ignore it's danger warnings, welcoming hordes of aliens into our houses, to bed down with our daughters and sons ,to cohabit and dilute our blood pool is a sure way to stop us from climbing higher.
The alternative to upward evolution is downward and retrogade evolution. Our civilization can slip back into barbarism and remain permanently in reverse gear. The possibilities for us downgoing are endless, the chances for us upgoing are limited.
The scene in some of the world's largest cities suggests that man is already degrading into a more primitive species.

If thanks to some beneficial mutation man has the ability and the will to make the quantum jump into a higher evolutionary grade, the question arises : From which ethnic group will he emerge ?
We Greeks need to be mindful about this race, competitive race.
Westerners, us Greeks, need to put on a new pair of glasses with which to view the world, knowing full well that for an introductory period new glasses are an unconfortable fit. Even if the West collapses as a result of multiracialism ( we Greeks don't have to suffer the same fate) and multiculturalism imbedded in contemporary liberal/anarcho/comunist theology , we Greeks in our small but homogeneous Greece can weather the storm and continue our evolutionary progress.
Should whites ,whose suicidal birthrate has declined to well below the replacement level, go under, the evolutionary Trek will come crashing to a halt.

We require realism and cool thinking heads. Whether one likes it or not Race is a central element in individual and group identity and must not be ignored.
A number of conclusions derive from the above position. A realistic evaluation of race leads to the conclusion that race and culture are inseparable. Some individuals can fully embrace a culture established by people of a different race, but most can not.
This is why race is the most volatile social fault line in a any country ( non homogeneous country) and why the current dramas of "Tolerance","multiculturalism","inclusion" etc, are almost always about race.

The immigration issue has to do with the one-sided advancement of non whites into white territories, Greece also being a target,that makes the current dynamics of race and immigration unacceptable and even dangerous to whites. Today in white countries we have antidiscriminatory laws, this is tantamount to placing the native in his own house in a straight jacket and gagging him. The whites have to witness the rape of their living space and say nothing.

I was speaking to a non orthodox foreigner, with a school going son. I asked him what he thought about Oxi day and the controversy surrounding the Greek flag in school ceremonies. I had an interesting reaction, I won't repeat the disrespectful remarks he made about Oxi day and his comment that his son, a very good student indeed, will not wish to carry the Greek flag, but if he is chosen to he will reluctanctly bear the greek flag as a national of his land and not as a Greek.

Responding to Ethnoc's little list



** 1) You are a race denier, which means you deny my very rights and existence.
_____
What on earth is a 'race denier?' Sounds like prison lingo. Ever do any time, ethnoc?


** 2) You give precedence to "those poor Africans" in Morocco and all other mewling asylum seekers over me, a fellow countryman and Greek.
_____
Precedence? I don't understand. What precedence?

As far as I can tell, everybody here seemed to agree a person should earn their citizenship. You haven't earned a thing, ethnoc, you're just an entitlement brat.

There are people whom I would call fellow countrymen, and you are certainly not one of them. We don't even live on the same planet. I find it deeply insulting that you call yourself Greek.


** 3) Even if I wasn't born in Greece, which I was, many of my friends are not, we still are Greek as far as the government is concerned and have all the rights and privileges of the country. Same as you, though you do not have any qualms to expropriate us of our birth rights in order to artificially paste them on "more deserving" poor people.
_____
I see, so Greekness is strictly a government matter. Little red passport and presto. Funny, I thought you said there was more to it than that.

Right. Well. Sorted! But you really ought to learn a bit more about the country. No one is taking any of your rights away, ethnoc, this is just a discussion. Though you appear to be running out of steam.


** 4) You are a snivelling, venom filled, intolerant Marxist.
_____
Heheh...No, I'm not.


** You ARE the enemy in my mind. You and the others who think like you. Hope THAT answered your question.
_____
Indeed.

We were always an ethno state, a nation state for our ethnic greeks.
When did we start going off the rails ? Why do we find ourselves living this dreadful nightmare ?
In the 60's when I was reading in the U.K, us Greeks kept repeating to ourselves that the racial degeneration taking place in Britain ( they were being pumped with human residue from Asia and the flotsam from Africa and no englishmen relished that fact) would never ever be visited upon us greeks. How wrong we were.
Mighty storms are building up on the far horizon. The end times for white countries might follow one of these scenarios.

1) As soon as non whites outnumber whites in previously white countries, law and order will collapse. A scenario such as the whites living in South africa would be replicated.A switch from representative government ( do we have one today ?) to a military or tribal dictatorship which will lead former white nations and the West back to a new Dark age.

2) Marxists, Trotskytes, anarchists and other international minded disaffected groups will terrorize heterogenous masses to substitute class hatred for their racial hostilities, thereby making it possible to install a dictatorship of the proleteriat which will hold on to its power and privileges by handing over ever greater sums of the countr's diminishing wealth to non whites.

3) A break up in the former white nations along racial lines, accompanied by a large scale relocation of populations, will confine Europeans and their descendants overseas to a much smaller living space. This is the only course of events which could eventually lead to a world or continent of white and non white nations, thereby allowing "western civilization" to survive in microcosm, if not in macrocosm.

A mortifying scenario.

Let us not deceive ourselves that because most of us are not hungry when we go to bed, that because our homes stay smug and dry when storms and cold fronts move in, that because most of us somehow hang onto our jobs, all is well. Some of the healthiest - looking individuals we pass in the street have cancers, real or psychological, rotting away their bodies or minds.

On Gyge's post:

About the Spaniards (and every other conquistador of any color or creed): The issue is simple, I think. Did they slaughter thousands for profit, conquest, religion? Then they are - or at least acted like - animals. Wrap it however you will, genocide remains just that. I don't care if a million "good" things came from it, the original act is still evil - and nothing truly good can come of evil. As for statues and the fake indians in latin america: How many "indians" are still with their original people in their original cities? Most are just "hispanicized", mostly by the blade or by the pox - or by the catholic church (who arguably is worse than either).

Everything white is bad, everything white has to be devalued, whites have to be made to feel guilty about their history, their past,( in order to facilitate their dispossesion) and in the words of a Harvard lecturer, Ignatief, "the white race needs to be exterminated".

I don't believe that at all and let me correct any misconceptions. I think "white" civilization (there is no such thing, but let's generalize here for the sake of brevity) is magnificent. But I think others are too.

I will not be surprised to hear you speak about Turkey being "our mother country". The Turk, the monstrous turk wiped us out of our ancestral homes in Byzantium,they committed genocide, Armenians suffered an even worst fate, Assyrians were made to vanished. So much for the civilizing Ottomans, civilizing with the scimitar, forcing wholesale populations to Islam,( 200000 Greeks massacred in the island of Chios,by the Grand Turk, a famous Dela Croix painting depicts the tragic episode)exacting blood tribute from the enslaved populations.

I am well aware of the painting, as I am aware of Ottoman atrocities and I do not consider Turkey our mother country - of course. As for Byzantium, it makes my point, the point of evolution. Byzantium was an ailing giant, old, beyond healing. The new force of the time (happened to be the Ottomans) came and wiped it out. It's merely evolution on a civilization scale if you will. The Ottoman empire in turn was wiped out, not by another gigantic empire, but by the necessity of the time, the evolutionary sound model: Small states. This continued even past WWII, even into the present time. Small mammals survive, dinosaurs don't. We saw what happened to the USSR and we can hear USA creaking in her foundations. I would not be surprised if eventually there was some sort of split. It seems the times favor smaller states.

As for immigration, we've covered that. I do think it should be regulated. Measures, I posted above. But don't view it as an orchestrated plan. It is merely evolution.

About Justiniano's post:

The earth's people are being herded into an ideological pen by advocates of globalism.
Obviously all men have similarities, just as they have differences. But they are never brothers . It is wiser to base our behaviour on this truth than to pretend otherwise. Our ability does not makes us fraternal. Fraternity applies to people who feel close to each other, people of similar race and culture.
To sell brotherhood to men and women of different races , separatede not only by genetics but by obvious differences in religion ,art, language and historical background , is an exercise in futility.


I agree. We are brothers in a transcendental quality if you will. We are all humans, have the same value as individuals, the same cosmic fate, the same problems and aspirations. But we are not brothers in any genetic, cultural, historic sense. I quite agree. That is not just between races, but within one as well. Greeks are not brothers with other white men, Germans are not brothers with the French and so on, even though culturally (and certainly genetically) they may be very close.

In our struggle for existence, and in particular in our Greece there are nobler and higher aims such as preparing to climb the next rung in the evolutionary ladder. Just as homo sapiens evolved from Homo erectus and homo erectus from early hominids ,and earlier hominids from primates , Homo supersapiens "must evolve" from homosapiens.

No argument here, at least with things stated as they are. I have reservations about the specifics of evolution, a matter for a scientific forum though and not pertinent to this discussion. Just a reminder, all people living on this planet today are homo sapiens.

This evolution will be brought to a standstill if we in Greece decide to ignore it's danger warnings, welcoming hordes of aliens into our houses, to bed down with our daughters and sons ,to cohabit and dilute our blood pool is a sure way to stop us from climbing higher.

This paragraph is flawed in many respects. First of all, it shows a poor grasp of what evolution really is - I don't mean this as an insult, it is hard for individuals not in the field to grasp the concept fully (I have my misconceptions too). Evolution, as I explained above, does not mean survival of the smartest or the most beautiful or the most pure. It merely means survival of the fittest. And fittest means "best adapted to the surroundings and changes in the environment". Thus evolution might be at some point reverting back to an earlier hominid. Or growing wings. Or antennae. Or everyone's skin turning black (with our ozone problems, don't be surprised). The second flaw in this paragraph is the assumption (based on what I wonder) that greek blood is "pure" and undiluted. I don't know how far you can trace your ancestry, but I doubt you'd see all greek blood there. There's probably a little bit of everyone in you. Black and white, Persian and Roman, Turkish and Albanian. Does that make you less greek? No. Does it make you not a descendant of the great greeks of ancient times? Of course not.

If thanks to some beneficial mutation man has the ability and the will to make the quantum jump into a higher evolutionary grade, the question arises : From which ethnic group will he emerge ?

There is one and only one answer to that: The ethnic group that fucks most. Or, to be more correct and less sensationalist, the ethnic group that procreates the most. Evolution - again, see? - is a matter of numbers. More offspring, better chance of improved "models". So, a quantum leap, while possible in Europe, would probably come from Asia or Africa. My bet would be on China.

We Greeks (..) liberal/anarcho/comunist theology , we Greeks in our small but homogeneous Greece can weather the storm and continue our evolutionary progress.

You do realize that our current evolutionary progress is towards extinction, right? As I said, with our declining birth index and aging population we are not headed in a good direction.

Should whites ,whose suicidal birthrate has declined to well below the replacement level, go under, the evolutionary Trek will come crashing to a halt.

I'm sorry, you do realize. The paragraph above was unnecessary. How arrogant! "If The White Man disappears evolution will stop and Homo Sapiens will de-evolve back into the caves". You remind me of people who think that if mankind disappears, the earth will be destroyed. Trust me, Earth would go on all the better for our extinction and favor some other life form, oceanic perhaps, or avian, who knows. What arrogance! You really surprise me.

On Peleus' musings:

Whether one likes it or not Race is a central element in individual and group identity and must not be ignored.

An excellent point. Race is central to identity, the way we perceive ourselves, not the way we truley are. Hence, overcoming the (natural) racial prejudice is both difficult and important.

A number of conclusions derive from the above position. A realistic evaluation of race leads to the conclusion that race and culture are inseparable. Some individuals can fully embrace a culture established by people of a different race, but most can not.

Another interesting notion. I was about to jump the gun, but then included your last phrase, which puts everything in better perspective. I do not think race and culture are inseperable. You are right though, most individuals would have serious difficulty in embracing a different culture. Not their children though - note that well! A black slave would have a horrible time if he were freed suddenly in Portugal let's say. He could never truly become Portugese. His children though could. And certainly his later descendants. Thus you have black Portugese. They are truly of that culture, they are not african, don't feel african, don't speak african, don't worship african. Hence a true black european. A true black white, if you will.

This is why race is the most volatile social fault line in a any country ( non homogeneous country) and why the current dramas of "Tolerance","multiculturalism","inclusion" etc, are almost always about race.

I disagree. Race is just the easy separator. It's all about class. The poorer classes always need someone lower. Who is the easiest target? The black man. The jew. Someone of different race. In Greece? The "Rom" (although our "gyftoi" are not all Rom, there are many of turkish-albanian descent). If we don't have a different race to blame, then it's truly about class. It's the rich people. They are the true calamity. Or the politicians. Or doctors. Or whoever. Race is just the front, the easy solution. The underlying cause is class.

Today in white countries we have antidiscriminatory laws, this is tantamount to placing the native in his own house in a straight jacket and gagging him. The whites have to witness the rape of their living space and say nothing.

What laws are these? An immigrant needs special ID, they need to register their current place of residence. Furthermore, they need to renew their status and can be kicked out any time. I don't see this as bad, but neither is it too liberal and it's gagging no one. Now, if you mean immigrants should have lower wages, no rights at all and be at our general mercy, well no. They shouldn't be. But I doubt you meant that.

As for Oxi day, I've heard my share of stupid or misinformed opinions. I am proud of my ancestors, proud to tears. And today? Half our children don't even know what we celebrate on that day and I cannot help but wonder. What if it were our lot to defend Greece as our grandfathers had to. Would we be as brave? Would we endure what they did just as well. I fear the answer is no and I fear it gets worse every generation. And immigrants are not to blame for that.

On Manolis' thoughts:

1) As soon as non whites outnumber whites in previously white countries, law and order will collapse.

A rather arbitrary and arrogant assumption (we are lawful, but everyone else is not), but not entirely far from reality. If Greece became 60% X-anian (add any ethnicity) let's say, the X-ians would demand more power, more seats in parliament, more ministers. And why not? Government should be representative of the people. Now, if that 60% were guest workers, not citizens, well then... there's something seriously wrong with us. We should procreate more - or dwindle and die.

A scenario such as the whites living in South africa would be replicated.

Hah! White rule in S. Africa was lawful and civilized?! The minority ruling the majority? The few having all rights and the many having none? The conquerors oppressing the conquered, that's what it was and a shameful page in white history. Shameful!

A switch from representative government ( do we have one today ?) to a military or tribal dictatorship which will lead former white nations and the West back to a new Dark age.

Three things in one paragraph so small: 1) No, we don't have a representative government today. It's a dictatorship of sorts and it only gets worse. 2) Black government means tribal dictatorship. Black = tribal (and that, meaning bad). What generalization! What ignorance! 3) A small note: The Dark Ages were ALL white. Well done white race! You dwindled into a terrorist theocracy! Fortunately, the Rennaissance corrected all that. We can be pretty "tribal" ourselves, can't we...

2) Marxists, Trotskytes, anarchists and other international minded disaffected groups will terrorize heterogenous masses to substitute class hatred for their racial hostilities, thereby making it possible to install a dictatorship of the proleteriat which will hold on to its power and privileges by handing over ever greater sums of the countr's diminishing wealth to non whites.

This has to be a copy/paste, from an old passage too! Trotskytes! Even mentioning the term must have created a cloud of dust around you *cough cough* Dictatorship of the proletariat! We don't even have a proletariat anymore! The last such dictatorship, North Korea, already is a living museum. Update your data here Manoli, it's a little outdated. The core of the paragraph is understood, but substitute "Marxist", "Trotskyist", "proletariat" with "Globalist", "Internationalist", "multicultural masses".

3) A break up in the former white nations along racial lines, accompanied by a large scale relocation of populations, will confine Europeans and their descendants overseas to a much smaller living space. This is the only course of events which could eventually lead to a world or continent of white and non white nations, thereby allowing "western civilization" to survive in microcosm, if not in macrocosm.

Honestly, I can't see that happening. I mean, relocation of people is never peaceful (ok, almost never) and one in such scale as you imply is unthinkable. Unless us whities have shrunk to a few thousand, then we can all live in New Zealand maybe.

Let us not deceive ourselves that because most of us are not hungry when we go to bed, that because our homes stay smug and dry when storms and cold fronts move in, that because most of us somehow hang onto our jobs, all is well.

Well said. Complacency will be the death of us all.

Some of the healthiest - looking individuals we pass in the street have cancers, real or psychological, rotting away their bodies or minds.

Yes, but we should first look at ourselves, see our own cancer first.

Some fine comments being made. Needless to say, the postings of Gyge, Justiniano, Peleus, and Manolis all see the forest for the trees. People like Scarfi and Flux want us to focus on the individual trees. Scarfi due to his "useful idiot" status as a Marxist mouthpiece and Flux due to his selfish ethnic interests. Of course he thinks Scarfi's plea for ignorance is correct. He's pleaing for him.

I also love the doom and gloom that white ethnic interests seem to always attract. The preservation of other ethnicities and races (mentioned above yet everyone conveniently ignored) do not have this catastrophic scenario, only whites. I wonder why that is? I wonder why there have been hundreds, if not thousands of films on Nazi Germany, yet hardly a handful made on Marxism and its ill effects in the Soviet Union and the east? Everyone knows the 6 million number and its implications, yet hardly anyone knows the over 100 million number of deaths due to the "tolerance" and "humanitarianism" of Marxist ideology.

To Flux and Scarfi, whether you want to accept the label of race denier, intolerant Marxists is up to you. However if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then....

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Just something I've been thinking about today. looking at MYSELF and questioning MY thoughts.

"Or Harry Enfield's "Stavros" character? Doesn't that bring connotations of "greasy, kebab-chomping greeks"?"

I found this post today on a racism in comedy forum and it got me thinking. I was one of those people who pissed myself laughing at Stavros who, back then, was my only knowledge of a Greek person (in the 80's)

The complicated issue of racism often doesn't come from hate exactly, but a crude stereotyping of groups of people. I grew up in a mainly white town in England where you went to "George's" for your fish and chips ( a staunchly British meal)

[Aside: Ok , most of the kebab shop owners etc were, in fact, Greek Cypriot BUT we didn't know anything else of Greece or the Greeks.]

My idea of Greek people and their culture was formed by these images/caricatures A Greek was someone who worked in a kebab shop, was hairy, greasy and uneducated, had some funny insights into the world, but was basically foreign. Sweet at best. An object of amusement mostly.

We laughed. A lot. At Stavros. For some people of my generation, he remains their only knowledge of Greeks.
Harry Enfield was undoubtedly right-on and liberal. But he spawned a character who remains etched on our minds. The funny foreigner ( insert at will: greek, albanian, russian, turk, pakistani, jamaican bla bla bla)

I have had friends/family say, ( too recently), "ooh the Greeks, they could do with a good wash"
OR "They're not very bright are they?"


It's not funny when the prejudice is directed at you but even less funny when we have colluded in the stereotyping of whole groups of people.

This all got me thinking because of the sh*t directed at me. But what has been my participation in this false view of the world?

My admission is that I laughed out loud at the silly Greek kebab shop stereotype of my youth. What's your admission?

"Gyge, Justiniano, Peleus, and Manolis." I think they are secretly all you, ethnokid? Ha

White nations everywhere are vanishing as the number of non whites increases. The chains that bind us whites everywhere ( Trotskytes marching in the streets of Buenos Aires waving the red flag in December 20th 2001 before the economic implosion that devastated the entire Arg. white middle class, joined by the Guevaristas and other communist wild dogs , using the filthy illegal immigrants from Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru as shock troops toppled the elected democratic government of De la Rua and installed the Duhalista/Lenicov interim Marxist /Totskyte interim dictatorship)are ideological chains, false beliefs.

The false belief is simply to comprehend that all races are equal. This is a lie. Should we really beleive that violent and stupid africans are our equals because the mass media portray them as such ? Have we ever been to Africa ? Unfortunately , it's not even necessary to go there because parts of our European major cities have been africanized until they resemble stinking sewers. If the non whites invading our homelands were wearing uniforms we'd be shooting at them, but since they aren't, we let them walk straight into our territory, settle in, steal from us , marry or rape our daughters and bastardize our race in the process. To stop this invasion of non-whites we need only to recognize the truth and then act on it. France is not France if it's populated by Africans and Arabs. Everything you will have loved about France will not survive when culture diversity has turned it into a cosmopolitan One World dung heap. Faboulous French food and fashion will no longer be French when they make way for shish kebabs and burkas. The myth of racial equality, egalitarianism is a lie. Let the truth sink in before we all sink and let the color of our skin be our uniforms.

Ethocentrist,Wotan, Gyge please keep writing, you are a breath of fresh hope and inspiration in the polluted atmosphere of intelectual masochism of the present.

There are those who relish and gloat at the thought of seeing Greece trampled under the foot of the Barbarian, portraying themselves as "modern", "progressive thinkers" "avant garde" "humanists" and other schatological epitehts. These sham erudite apes will not be able to hold forth an argument with the likes of you, however they hide behind stylish prose heaping abuse at their opponents and displaying their assinine incomprehension at events and circumstances surrounding our homeland and that of other white nations.

This is a struggle, Oxi day is a vindication of our struggle and woe to those who stain the memory of our fallen heroes.

There should be no mercy with traitors and Ali Pasha's. Unfortunately amongst us we have many turcosporos blandly smiling a la turca whilst undermining our nation and state.

Oh manolis, and the like, shut up with the diatribe.Devious makes an interesting observation. WHAT DO YOU SAY?

What insane paranoia and ignorance has been uttered of late. I mean, seriously folks. Step away from the propaganda.

Yeah, manoli, try saying something marginally relevant for once.

One last shot at ethnocentrist, and the floor is yours, diva.

* To Flux and Scarfi, whether you want to accept the label of race denier, intolerant Marxists is up to you. However if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then....
________

Once again, wide of the mark and zero substance.

Get a clue, ethnoc. What you sellin, aint nobody buyin. You is so, so lost. Someday you'll have to face the fact that you've wasted a lot of time and energy on a meaningless belief system - you couldn't even defend it successfully in a blog thread.

Why don't you turn your mind to something constructive instead of this idiotic warmongering? Stamp collecting, raising chinchillas, anything except trying to convince people to share your obsession and fight your wars for you. There just isn't much future in being a chicken hawk.

(Also - be a prince and find some new epithets to sling, this 'Marxist' stuff is just too quaint.)

Ah, very nice.

At least Manolis is not beating around the bush. There is a big difference between him and Ethocentrist and Gyge. The latter two I disagree with on many items, agree on some and in any case, they make the discussion interesting and stimulating.

Manolis, on the other hand, is a prime example of the greek neo ultra rightwinger: Undereducated, for all practical purposes illiterate (I doubt he's read a single great book in his life, just party leaflets) rapid-firing stereotypical (and pre-made for him) pseudo arguments and slogans.

At first I thought Ethnocentrist was one of them, but no I don't think so anymore, especially since Manolis made the contrast so apparent.

My dear Manoli (and I'm not being sarcastic, I do care for all greeks) it is not too late. Just for fun, as an excercise of the mind, read some books of the "other side". Say to yourself "hey! Let me be a Marxist-Trotskyist for a day! See how these bastards live". Then be something else. A black maybe or a christian or a muslim. Read about other things than your tiny little universe. Read in general, it's good for the soul.

Tired rhetoric full of pompous slogans does not become a patriot. Intelligence, arguments, knowledge, flexibility would be instead - shining through a post - the most convincing argument, the one to win people over. Or at least make them think.

Pardon me, I am not that good - but I hope that I did make you think.

I'd ask - again - that if we have no arguments to contribute, to not make this thread much longer than it needs to be.

You is so, so lost.

And what's with the ebonics all of a sudden? Heh. Unless you speak like that, in which case I apologize in advance.

Ours is a solemn moment. We greeks stand at a crisis, a crisis greater and far more dangerous than that faced by our venerable heroe Metaxas in the hours before his historica Oxi to the Italian foreign minister at his home in Xifisias. Then we had an enemy, a Barbarian hurling itself against Hellas from abroad ; today we have the Barbarian in our midst. We must purge ourselves from the race pollutants of the thirld world variety if we are to remain true to ourselves.

The crisis embraces all White people. For unnumbered millenniums man has toiled upward from the dank jungles of savagery toward glorious heights which his mental and spiritual potentialities afforded him. Man's trail is littered with the wrecks of dead civilizations and dotted with the graves of promising peoples stricken by an untimely end.

Out of the prehistoric shadows the white races pressed to the front and proved in a myriad way their fitness for the hegemony of mankind. Two things are necessary for the continued existence of a race: it must remain itself and it must breed its best. Close watch of the breeding types is axiomatic.

Of course the more primitive a type is, the more prepotent it is.
This is why crossing with the negro are uniformly fatal.

There is an inmediate danger of the world being swamped by black blood. But there is a very inminent danger that the white race may be swamped by Asiatic blood.

The white man's very triumphs have evoked this danger. His virtual abolition of distance has destroyed the protection which nature once conferred. With the development of cheap and rapid transportation, nature barriers are down. Unless man erects and maintains artificial barriers the various races will increasingly mingle and the inevitable result will be the supplanting or absorption of the higher by the lower types. The present trends of immigration has a tendency of replacement of the more valuable by the less valuable elements of the population. All over the world , the civilized world racial values are diminishing, and the logical end of this disgenic process is racial bankruptcy and the collapse of civilization.

In Greece we can rescue ourselves from the threatening collapse, the plague of miscgeneation and population replacement of the high types by the lower , provided we exercise the same stern self discipline that inspired Metaxas to deliver his exalted Oxi to the ashen face Italian minister. Oxi to the invasion of Hellas, no more Pakies, bangladeshis, Vietnamese,Philipines, asylum seekers, pseudo refugees, Oxi to this subhuman detritus soiling the sacred soil of Hellas.

I , for one think this is interesting...

"Just something I've been thinking about today. looking at MYSELF and questioning MY thoughts.

"Or Harry Enfield's "Stavros" character? Doesn't that bring connotations of "greasy, kebab-chomping greeks"?"

I found this post today on a racism in comedy forum and it got me thinking. I was one of those people who pissed myself laughing at Stavros who, back then, was my only knowledge of a Greek person (in the 80's)

The complicated issue of racism often doesn't come from hate exactly, but a crude stereotyping of groups of people. I grew up in a mainly white town in England where you went to "George's" for your fish and chips ( a staunchly British meal)

[Aside: Ok , most of the kebab shop owners etc were, in fact, Greek Cypriot BUT we didn't know anything else of Greece or the Greeks.]

My idea of Greek people and their culture was formed by these images/caricatures A Greek was someone who worked in a kebab shop, was hairy, greasy and uneducated, had some funny insights into the world, but was basically foreign. Sweet at best. An object of amusement mostly.

We laughed. A lot. At Stavros. For some people of my generation, he remains their only knowledge of Greeks.
Harry Enfield was undoubtedly right-on and liberal. But he spawned a character who remains etched on our minds. The funny foreigner ( insert at will: greek, albanian, russian, turk, pakistani, jamaican bla bla bla)

I have had friends/family say, ( too recently), "ooh the Greeks, they could do with a good wash"
OR "They're not very bright are they?"


It's not funny when the prejudice is directed at you but even less funny when we have colluded in the stereotyping of whole groups of people.

This all got me thinking because of the sh*t directed at me. But what has been my participation in this false view of the world?

My admission is that I laughed out loud at the silly Greek kebab shop stereotype of my youth. What's your admission?"


The rest is kinda, bullsh*t intellectual bla bla.

To the Seawitch, thanks for your superhuman patience.
To Thanos for acting, and writing reasonably in the face of moronism, to the Diva for being sane, to scarfalonius for trying to humour the idiot-spawn, and to Ellasdevil for being one of the nicest people I never met.
To the ethno-mob, how do you sleep at night? And before you answer let me guess, you sleep fine, and you know why? Because you need brains to dream.

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Oh and by the way, to scarfalonius. Watch out the idiot-spawn have no sense of humour. WHOOSH! It's well over their dwarf brains.

And yes ethno I am a COMMUNIST-MARXIST-HIPPY-
DOPESMOKING-COLOURED-JEWISH-MUSLIM-
EVERYTHING-YOU-HATE-
AND-PROUD-OF-IT-TYPE.
STEW MOTHER@#$!ER.

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To Manolis
and the rest of your of your little mob...

There was a Greek-American blues player once who said, and I quote: "At first I thought you had to be Black to play the Blues. Then I thought you had to feel Black to play the blues. But then I realised that you had to be TREATED like a black person to play the blues"... and thats what you are everywhere else Greek boy. Just another nigger on the scrounge.

Let's see, my side of the aisle has been devastating in offering fact and logic as to why we do not want Greece and the west to be inundated with immigrants of the distant kind. There is no shortage of evidence as to why ethnic groups do not get along and all you need to do is look at the history of the Balkans to see that even cousins do not get along with deadly consequences if forced to cohabit the same regions. But no, that isn't enough. We want total strangers with no commonality aside that we both breath air and drink water for sustenance. Sorry, that isn't enough, nor will it ever be.

The other, "let's ignore messy facts and focus on ideology", side brings out their big guns of vitriol, ad hominems, strawmen, pleas for humanity, doom & gloom future mass murdering, anecdotes, denial of heritage and birth right, and the never too outdated and ready for a dust off, denial of race. The abject ignorance of the "denial of race" argument is just too mind-boggling to even attempt to refute. When there are companies who are able to identify the racial makeup of individuals, or help forensic scientists determine the race of a victim or perpetrator by a single drop of blood or strand of hair like DNA Print, you wonder about the strength, honesty, and intelligence of these types of arguments that deny the very existence of race. To these people a Swede is a Nigerian is a Chinese. Yep, makes a lot of sense. I've already wasted way too much time on this nonsensical, indoctrinated "religion" of the left.

The anger oozing from Scarfi can be attributed to a multitude of things, namely a slow epiphany that his arguments are simply slogans with no meat behind them, a projection or possibly reaction formation of sorts, though I will let Thanos be the official diagnostician on this. Maybe he did well on his "Marxist, Shmarxist let's focus on Hitler" course in his university and needs to keep up the facade. Or maybe he has contracted the "jungle fever" and feels his new Greeks are the way of the future. Lovely lad, that "Sofoklis". Or maybe he IS Sofoklis. But I digress, sorry. I honestly think, given Scarfi's lack of argument on these matters he would best be suited to stay in the company of the Flat Earth Society. They have much to discuss, apparently.

Flux brings much to the table. He offers vulgarity, capitalized musings, writing the word "nigger" for effect, saying that Greeks are viewed as niggers by "truly white" people so we better swallow whole the immigrant invasion due to no other choice, and pretty much nothing else. Flux (and Diva) are the only leftist people here who are fighting for their own selfish ethnic interests whether they know it or not. I give them credit for that because that is what we are meant to do. They obviously do it under the guise of humanity blah blah, but they do it. Bravo to them and pity on the others who are the "useful idiots" in this grand scheme.

BTW Flux, you can scream all you want about how Greeks are viewed, however the fact of the matter is that Greeks have EARNED a tremendous amount of respect in whatever country they have immigrated to...uhh...rightfully, legally, and when asked to. They have been constructive and productive citizens without ever asking for any help. I am a prime example of this and our church/community is filled with an entire slew of "me". Now blacks on the other hand, well unfortunately they are still viewed as "niggers" for obvious reasons. Same goes for Turks and Persians. Maybe that is the reason you are so eager to paint us all with the same brush, no?

Onward. We have the great orator, "fedupandfurious". This lovely chap doesn't even bother to hide the left's true desires, he comes out and says it. He wants anyone who he doesn't agree to just shut up. Simple as that. LOL He wants a rebuttle about Diva's anecdote. Well "fedup", the rebuttle is in the paragraph above this one, however let me go on a little more. The notion of stereotyping from a comedic perspective has its roots in truth. Greeks for sure have deserved the "greasy kabob" stereotype because for the longest time, that's all the immigrants were producing. That is until the following generations with people becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, entrepreneurs, VCs, etc. You see, when we were oppressed, and we were to a degree and discriminated against, we took it and moved ahead. We didn't rape, murder, or burn down our neighborhoods and cities. We were civil and decent. What better revenge for the slight than becoming successful and giving back to the city/country for the opportunity. Lot's of Anglos work for me and I can assure you that no one calls me a "nigger". So why does one ethnic group succeed and another fail? Genetics maybe? Genetics that leads to culture, work ethic, drive, intelligence. Or is it just dumb luck in your mind?

The only one I feel true empathy for is Thanos. He is stuck in the middle as the moderator. He is the only one honest enough here to state things with levelheadedness. Flux (?or Scarfi?)states that anyone I disagree with is a Marxist. WRONG. I disagree with Thanos, on a multitude of things, though he is no Marxist. I believe he is torn between the facts he sees and the ideology that has been ingrained in him. No matter because he is honest and that I respect more than anything else. Truth and honesty.

Which leads me back to this immigration topic. The truth of the matter is that I have not heard ANY solid evidence that shows why whites in general and Greeks specifically should continue with massive third world immigration. I've read and digested the fluff above yet no one has given, nor answered actually, why Greeks should not protect themselves like the Japanese, Israelis, Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, and many African countries. WHY should we not do what others do and WHY should we open the doors to ethnic conflicts, genocide (of OURSELVES), and balkanization?

ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!

Justiniano...if you're going to plagiarize, find somewhere else to do it. Your last post can be found in its entirety here...http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/stoddard/rtc_3-12.html

If you can't come up with anything original to write, just post a link instead of rewriting someone else's thoughts and passing them off as your own. From what I've seen on other forums, I guess that's what the majority of racial separatists and white supremacists have to do. Their own education was the first victim in their race to win the racial superiority hoax of a competition.

Flux...I don't have patience for the rants unleashed in here which is why I gave up on posting further on this topic.

I can see a Marxist ideology, permeating the discussions. One can not engage in a dialogue with a Marxist, the Marxist will lead you into his dialectical doctrine, we are all aware what that means.

I am learning a good deal,through these postings, (some of them are really enlightening, others not so, and others... comment is redundant) and my conclusion is that a communist is a wound up megaphone booming slogans, slandering contrarian ideas and bringing the exchange of views to basement levels.

The aflictions overshadowing our land are not unique to Hellas, the malaise is spread worldwide where Europeans are concerned ,it impacts the white race. We Greeks are white, whoever refutes or rejects the fact is an ignoramus.
As a member of the white race we have to identify with such causes.
The communists are what someone else called Race nihilists.
Their ideas are obsolete and bankrupt yet they refuse to acknowledge it. It is in their nature to detract and destroy tradition, religion,family, race, nation.

I feel that Oxi day should be renamed Metaxas day. However it will not happen. Metaxas was putateviley a nationalist with a proclivity to sympathyse with the Axis powers( that in communist parlance is equating a great man to a devil) . And yet Metaxas chosed to fight the injustice emanating from his own sympathies. A communist can not grasp nor comprehend such a behaviour. It is a puzzling question to them.

Marxist ideology is driven to tear down down the "old and evil" values of Western Civilization ( Hellenic civilization) then once this wrecking enterprise is accomplished reconstruction follows in a supposedely new, correct and egalitarian society.
I am waiting to see where that egalitarian society is, it is not of this world.

I am told that in USA the media network is at the forefront of corrupting and undermining the white youth. I can not comment on that, but I have seen a blatant antiwhite slant in British TV, just as I see day after day anti greek and pro immigration drivel in our communications and media outlets.

Oxi day and immigration are intertwined. Immigration is a hot issue, it need not have been. We Greeks were fine until the end of the 80's.and now we have contracted the cancer that plagues all white nations. Now if we had a democratic government , genuine democracy, the voice of the electorate would be heard if given the opportunity. We did not have a referendum if we wanted the Euro, we did not have a referendum if we wanted to accept the EU constitution. We did not have a referendum to ask us if we need, want or welcome immigration. We don 't seem to be given choices. We are treated like members of a gulag. The govt. ram it down our throats. This immigration tag is a misnomer, the issue is much larger ( as aptly described by posters).

When I have to be occupied with a question of whether a foreign student is entitled to bear the Greek Flag, my reaction, and that of other healthy con nationals is to ponder if Greece is having an identity crisis.

I urge all non desirable foreigners, non assimilable xenos not to overextend greek hospitality ,to pack their bags and leave for other shores, go to Britain, go to France ( the first african nation in the European continent)go to Turkey , somewhere where you'll be welcome with open arms , but leave Greece to Greeks.

I'd rather be taxed 40% of my wages to cleanse Greece of undesirables, than be taxed 10% from my wages to provide asylum to the invaders.

ethnocentrist,

"That is until the following generations with people becoming doctors, lawyers, accountants, entrepreneurs, VCs, etc. You see, when we were oppressed, and we were to a degree and discriminated against, we took it and moved ahead. We didn't rape, murder, or burn down our neighborhoods and cities. We were civil and decent. What better revenge for the slight than becoming successful and giving back to the city/country for the opportunity"

...is no different to what other groups of people have done when they settled in britain. (For example Jamaicans, who were specifically invited)

There are a minority of people who rape, murder and they are criminals. The vast majority are law abiding respectful citizens.

I don't need an answer from you. I am sure you will not come up with anything I haven't heard before.

On Justiniano post - Well spotted SeaWitch.

I am not sure if you meant this, but it seems like you are saying that flux is the ranter here and the others are not? That's just my reading of it.

"Flux...I don't have patience for the rants unleashed in here which is why I gave up on posting further on this topic."

I hope people will continue to post here. I know I gave up at one point. But I then realised I could not let these people "win" just because they shout louder.

Pedia, leave gratuitous insults aside. Don't shoot the messenger but the message. What is this form of personal attacks by way of insults ? Have an argument say it, have an idea say it.

We had a civil war in Greece not long ago. It was as a result of a foreign invasion of our land. The manner in which some of the exchanges are being conducted (virulent communist venom; as usual cut from the same cloth as the scoundrel criminals who murdered my uncle)
might land us in another civil conflict, and again thanks to the Barbarians battening Greek territory. History repeats itself. As if we did not have our hands full with the Turks and moslems breathing down our necks next door, we are required by the Global masters to tolerate our obliteration through immigration.


We Greeks never learn. To collide, injure and slaughter each other for the sake of Barbarian ideologies and Barbarian interests.

Diva...sorry about the ambiguity there. Flux had thanked me for my "superhuman patience" and I just responded that I really don't have any patience for the rants and spiels which I why I kind of gave up on commenting. I did not mean to imply that Flux rants at all...in fact, all his posts are the complete opposite...they're quite succinct with no ambiguity and verbal hemmhoraging whatsoever. A prime example of it is here: "And yes ethno I am a COMMUNIST-MARXIST-HIPPY-
DOPESMOKING-COLOURED-JEWISH-MUSLIM-
EVERYTHING-YOU-HATE-AND-PROUD-OF-IT-TYPE. STEW MOTHER@#$!ER."
Thank God I agree with his position otherwise I think I'd be afraid. LOL Sorry for any confusion there.

I have read the right-wing postings on this blog and have gleaned this information from the long-winded collective arguments of the authors:

1. All non-whites are subhuman savages, and should be removed, post-haste, from the culturally and genetically superior countries of the West. There is scientific and statistical proof for the above, which abounds, if you open your eyes and read the right sources.

2. Western man, the White man, made everything that was worth the bother. All other cultures have contributed nothing positive to the history of mankind, ever.

3. The barbarian hordes are waiting for the opportunity to degrade, degenerate and destroy the purity of the white gene pool. And the liberals and lefties have been actively colluding with them to do so.

4. You have all read the true history of the world and have discovered the great Liberal- Lefty Axis' plot to systematically lie to the rest of the White world through schools and universities, and make them feel guilty for fabricated crimes against other races. You also have irrefutable proof that mixed blood equals corruption and degeneration. By inference suggesting that being inbred is inherently superior to mixing with those of other races, and that genetic science as we've known it, is also a charade. Therefore; Diversity is destruction, homogeneity is survival.

Let's see what else? Oh

5. Everyone who disagrees with this set of beliefs is a Marxist race-denier, who has been fully indoctrinated into the Liberal-Lefty plot, and is misguided by, or perhaps fully involved in the great plot against the White race.

From the above five articles of faith you have fashioned a set of arguments that are foolproof and irrefutable, and anyone who is stupid enough to call you on them is simply stupid, or worse is a barbarian him/herself.

Why did it take you so many thousands of words to state these simple beliefs?

Thank you once more Sea Witch for your kind words.

Answer my questions I posed to you, fool. If you cannot, then just say so. Do not use strawmen arguments against me for surely you must know by now I will shred them. I won't even dignify your "summarization" of evidence brought forth with a response due to the paucity of substance in it and complete bastardization of said evidence.

Now, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS! As I have sat here with patience the best I could muster and tried to answer all of yours.

Nice post, Flux. I deleted a line here muttering about why so few people were stepping up against these racists.

Sorry Seawitch, for another longwinded contribution. I'll stop if you like.



Here you go, ethnoc -

Yes, I am angry at you and the way you think. Why? Because you prey on fear. Your entire discourse is shaped by threat, apocalypse and fear of the 'other.' Bitter old men like you have manipulated young people into fighting useless wars since time began.

It's also terribly frustrating that your time allows such a volume of writing. It's simply impossible to refute each and every one of your flimsy arguments because I have to work for a living. Are you retired or something?

Beyond all that, I'm angry because you seem to think your beliefs are perfectly okay. They are not. These ideas have led many, many people to kill and be killed over the last century - it isn't by chance that all movements like yours have lost every war they've ever fought. I believe they'll lose again, if it comes to that, but not before entire generations of young people have died fighting. Ethnoc, your parents' country can't afford it.

[deleted lines berating the world for not contributing more to this thread]

So why am I bothering with your bankrupt notions? Because someone has to. And I'm not happy about it.


Here's something, anyway.
__________
Let's see, my side of the aisle has been devastating in offering fact and logic as to why we do not want Greece and the west to be inundated with immigrants of the distant kind. There is no shortage of evidence as to why ethnic groups do not get along and all you need to do is look at the history of the Balkans to see that even cousins do not get along with deadly consequences if forced to cohabit the same regions. But no, that isn't enough. We want total strangers with no commonality aside that we both breath air and drink water for sustenance. Sorry, that isn't enough, nor will it ever be.

______________


Your side of the aisle has nothing going for it except persistence and volume. The 'fact' is that history is not just a list of war and conflict. In every century there have been wars that lasted one, two, five, ten years, a very few somewhat longer. The rest of the time was peaceful - though there are many different kinds of peace. The vast majority of the people who have ever lived on this planet lived and died in peace. Peace is not the exception, it is the rule. Sorry that doesn't sit well with all the grand opera earlier in this thread, but it's the boring, banal truth. The very fact that there are still so many different cultures and ethnicities in the world attests to this. If war was the 'natural' state of things, there'd be no one left.

The Balkans are a good example. Yes, there have been more wars here than in many other neighborhoods (all the Great Powers for 2000 years had interests here after all), but the rule still holds true. Most of the time, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, Turks and Bulgarians have just gotten on with the business of life. Most villages and cities in this region were mixed, there were many, many intermarriages, and it was only in the 19th and 20th centuries that things changed dramatically. Meanwhile, wars and civil wars have been stirred up by many, many ethnocentric orators who thought they might have something to gain from violence and chaos.

And that's why I won't let you off the hook. Your kind has screwed up this region innnumerable times before.

Unlike you, I do not fear my neighbors. They have more in common with Greece than Austria, Sweden or the US. And believe it or not, so do Arabs, Iranians, Africans and Pakistanis. People from those countries have all had similar experiences with poverty, oppression, occupation. Their mentalities are not so different from Greeks', however much you might like to think otherwise. Just they worship different gods, or not, they dance to different music, or not, they tell their children different bedtime stories. Why don't you spend some time with these people, ethnoc, before you go condemning them? You'll find their stories are not so different from your parents'. But then you can't see past skin color.

__________
Greece is small, has relatively few immigrants and they have not lived there for umteen generations. Did you ever think of humanitarian repatriation? Did you ever think of financial compensation to persuade them to leave? Did you ever think of gradual exportation? No, just mass murder and Nazi. That's all. All are unpleasant but infinitely more appealing than your one and only scenario. Now I wouldn't want to be in the UK or Germany's shoes. They have much, much more of a problem.
_______

Greece is small, and foreigners (those born elsewhere) make up around 10% of the population. That's not so small. The entire construction industry, not to mention housecleaning, farming, chicken-plucking, the ad biz etc. would collapse overnight if they left. And god knows the restaurant scene in Athens would get real dull real fast. Your much earlier remark about automating society with robots is not even worth comment.

As to my previous statements about mass murder, the fact that you use phrases like 'humanitarian repatriation' and 'forced exportation' (is that a word?) shows how little you know about the reality on the ground. Look, I made a little list for you.

Who is going to pay for
A) flights, ships, cattlecars back to everyone's countries of origin?
B) the lost labour and absolutely vital tax revenue that these people provide?
C) the pensions of every Greek citizen for the next 100 years?
D) enforcement of your draconian immigration policy?

The Greeks? We can't even pay off the Olympics. We can't even fund the Culture ministry. Or public transportation. Or the hospitals. We can't even stay in the EU without lying about our national budget! And you want financial incentives on top of all that?

2. Even assuming you could decide who leaves and who stays - which is much, much harder than your simplistic philosophy can imagine - how do you make them stay out? Stern warnings? This is a country that cannot enforce parking regulations. Making it illegal for Greeks to hire illegals? It's already illegal, and look. The biggest supporters of illegal immigration are their Greek employers. They're making a fortune. And so is everyone else in Europe and the US.

You know and I know that the only way to keep people out of Greece is by re-mining the borders, sinking any boats that stray into our waters, pillboxing the coastline (is that a word?) and creating an immigration gestapo to sweep Omonia Square and the rest of the entire country every few hours. These solutions may appeal to your heartless sense of order and make your tabletop map tidier, but they are simply not workable.

Hence my impassioned appeal to your parental instincts. That Spanish enclave in Morocco comes very strongly to mind. Again, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Fortunately, since Greece knows exactly where the bottom line is, it will never come to that. I wish there were more noble reasons.

_________
Which leads me back to this immigration topic. The truth of the matter is that I have not heard ANY solid evidence that shows why whites in general and Greeks specifically should continue with massive third world immigration. I've read and digested the fluff above yet no one has given, nor answered actually, why Greeks should not protect themselves like the Japanese, Israelis, Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, and many African countries. WHY should we not do what others do and WHY should we open the doors to ethnic conflicts, genocide (of OURSELVES), and balkanization?
______________

Balkanizing Greece? Bit redundant.

Well, by that logic, why shouldn't we drop mustard gas on villages, as some countries do. Why shouldn't we invade other countries to steal their natural resources, as some countries do. Why shouldn't we lock up the entire population and starve them into submission, as some countries do (well, one).

We don't because our societies have had the courage and the luck to provide a fair degree of freedom and democracy for our citizens - Ellasdevil wrote something really moving about Oxi day, you should read that. But then, you're a Nazi sympathizer, so you probably wouldn't like it. Yes, the Japanese and the Israelis have strict, and to my mind despicable, immigration laws based on bloodline. But then the Israelis kill Palestinians every day and the Japanese kill themselves, so I don't see why Greece should follow their examples. Not everyone looks at a map of the world and divides it along color lines, seeing demography as the be-all and end-all of human existence - I think that's just you and your friends. You've noted that no nation in the European Union has such laws. You might call that 'racial suicide' but there are 350 million 'white' people who don't agree with you. They voted on it.

The point you keep avoiding and bulldozing over, ethnoc, is that the people of Greece have a deeper understanding of immigration and ethnicity than you give us credit for. After exporting its refugees to the world for generations, Greece has finally reached a level of wealth where it doesn't need to do that anymore. Immigration isn't fun, most people don't do it for kicks. They'd much rather stay home. Greece has enough cultural memory, or whatever you want to call it, of immigration to understand what it's about, how hard it is, how heartbreaking it is. But that's beyond you, you just grew up in your lily-white suburb, reaped the benefits and wondered why your map isn't one color.

That, coupled with the soaring profit margins, is why you and your friends are just blowing smoke. Makes me cough. The truth is, I won't pick up my baseball bat and meet you on the corner because I'm a bleeding heart liberal, fighting for the love of the huddled masses. I'll do it because I don't like you.

"Now, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS! As I have sat here with patience the best I could muster and tried to answer all of yours"

ethnocentrist (yes I have never shortened your tag into some banal insult even though you do it all the time)

You have not answered every question I have directed at you specifically. You certainly did not answer a specific question I asked you in my last post (Harry Enfield)

"ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!" was a general shout out to anyone who was listening as far as I can see. (Unless it was directed at someone specific which is not clear)No-one is under any obligation to answer a footstamping poster having a temper tantrum. Just because you have no answer to Flux (or to whoever this is directed at) and had to resort to insult and shouting, does not mean they are under any more obligation than you are to answer. I would feel differently if you would answer ALL the direct questions aimed at you.

From Hyperborean: "We Greeks are white, whoever refutes or rejects the fact is an ignoramus.
As a member of the white race we have to identify with such causes."

Greeks are white. So what? So are millions of other people on the planet. How is it that you and so many others seem to think that you have achieved something extraordinary by being born white? You got your white skin by a fluke of nature. And now that you've stated you're white...just what difference do you think your white skin will make in this world? It's ridiculous. Are you proud of your big toe, your left ear or your right kneecap? If you're going to be proud of something...make it something that you actually DID ... not what you were already handed by fate.

Scarf...your last paragraph was so good, it deserved to be repeated.

"The truth is, I won't pick up my baseball bat and meet you on the corner because I'm a bleeding heart liberal, fighting for the love of the huddled masses. I'll do it because I don't like you."

Points just don't get made any better than that.

Diva...you are so right. The voices of reason always seem to get drowned out by the voices of screaming banshees.

“Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell

“The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.” -- Aristotle


Well, this essentially will be my last post so for the ones who don’t read my entire posts, or skim, or have English reading comprehension problems, pay close attention because it is a real doozy.

I am thoroughly disgusted with the “tolerant” left which most, if not all of you are. I am not surprised in the least to see such venom being spewed because that IS the modus operandi of the left, and not the right. I have written to what amounts to at least one or two chapters in an average sized book and everything, or nearly everything, has been brought forth with verifiable data, fact, logic behind the assertions, and potential solutions to these problems not the least of which was to STOP immigration. I’m sorry that I have studied these things for so long they are essentially second nature to me. I’m also sorry that you all have been indoctrinated by liars and egalitarians, as was I. It took me a great deal of time to throw off these mental shackles and begin delving into how the real world is. Most of you are too young to understand because I know that at your ages, I was just as blind and stupid as all of you are. Oh yes, Scarfi I am 42 years old for your information and not some geezer you were hoping for. Some who are older may never understand because it is too easy to maintain the lie. If the actualization does not come in the late 30’s or early 40s, it will never come. The truth is quite unpleasant, I can attest to that. It was Gyge who said…”I don't expect any student graduating from a Western university not to hold such a perverted and adulterated view of his own history. The barbarian's grip on education is suffocating.” He is absolutely correct save for the miniscule fact that the “barbarians” he refers to are white extreme liberal Marxists who would rather see nothing better than the complete destruction of western man. This has been the case before the turn of the 20th century. It has reached its zenith during our times thanks to the travesty of Hitler and the endless ammunition he gave the vile Marxists to push the entire European continent towards a destructive leftist ideology. The relentless ferreting out of that possible “new Hitler”. And one thing about Marxism is that it is untenable and always destroys the people that embrace it before destroying itself.

Want to know where we are heading? People must have heard George H. W. Bush speak of a "New World Order" when he was President of the United States in late 80s to early 90s. There was also Clinton who was quite the important player that pushed through NAFTA or North America Free Trade Agreement, which was touted as a boon to "free trade", yet has resulted in quite a different entity than what was originally sold to the citizens of Canada and the US. Recently we have seen the emergence and subsequent passing of CAFTA or Central America Free Trade Agreement, though not very many people were eager to see it pass. People's opinion do not matter to what the global elite eventually want as we will see. These monstrosities are under the umbrella of FTAA, or Free Trade Area of the Americas which will see the free flow of peoples as far south as Chile and Argentina to as far North as Nunavut in Canada

Europe has seen the formation of the EU or European Union. This bureaucratic body started small and is steadily enlarging where the goal is to allow all European countries into the conglomerate where the control of individual nation's citizens and their cultural identity is controlled by a central group. No longer will individual states have control of their policies and borders, this will come from the supreme beings in Brussels and rotated around the individual capitals. But why stop with European countries? Why not let in Turkey, an asian country in the fold. This sounds like a wonderful idea, does it not? It does not matter that the citizens of Europe strongly oppose it, what matters is what the enlightened elite think is best for the masses. They are the ones who truly know and have seen the future. We mustn't disagree with them for we are mere simpletons and narrow minded thinkers afterall.

Other wonderful creations are the African Union, ASEAN, and now Oceania is targeted with its Pacifica Union. Why is all this happening and what is the goal of all these unnatural formations and amalgamations? Do people think that once these regional "superstates" become stabilized, most likely through military force, the next step would be to coalesce these regional areas into one global state? It seems quite clear to me that that is the road the elites in various countries are headed towards. This human amalgamation will profit no one aside from the elites and their pocket books. Not that they need more money, however that will be an obvious benefit for them and their familial clans. The more important issue is that this will lead to an extreme amount of power that will be controlled by a select few. An oligarchy of super-powerful people. A “nobility" if you will. The rest of the global populace will be mere faceless, lifeless masses stripped of any rights they currently enjoy at the present. This abhorrent ideology has been around and is being disguised under the misnomer of "free" trade. This ideology is nothing but global Marxism where a select few try and amalgamate the proletariat under one powerful, totalitarian state that WILL control its people with extreme brutality if necessary. We have seen the effects of Marxism. It was very unpleasant and led to the death of over 100 million people. Those numbers will pale to what is in store for the global population if this leviathan is not stopped in its tracks. God help us all if we fail to do so.

When one gets to the point of losing it to where physical violence is threatened not only by one (Flux) but two (Scarfi) people, then reposted by the blog owner akin to a high school cheerleader when her football playing boyfriend wants to beat up another classmate, that is a sure indication that the argument is won…by ME. How pathetic and utterly primitive of the “tolerant” left. Look in the mirror you animals and see just who the mass murderers are. That is probably why Scarfi’s pleas to stop talking and thinking about such “unpleasant” things, he knows full well he, and others like him do not have the ability to refute claim after claim and fact after fact. Akin to the “Hulk” where you just don’t want to really piss him off because there is no telling what he may do. The only thing remaining is violence which the left has nearly always started and in regards to the US, it has ALWAYS been the instigator in civil unrest. Therein lies the rub, where an ideology is based on the flimsiest of notions backed by hot air and its foundation is as firm footed as greased shoes on a sheet of ice. Of course the pleas for humanity quickly ensue. Of course anger quickly follows. Of course violence is the only alternative…for weak and beaten adversaries. Why of course, RETHINKING your stance is completely out of the question because…I do not know why? Only sentient beings with the occasional neuron or two are capable of analysis and re-analysis, but that speaks volumes of many on the left. The inability to critically analyze the dogma. Maybe it goes back to the comfortable zone that indoctrinated individuals find themselves in and pulling them out is so unpleasant that it is better to keep believing the lie.

Scarfalonius,

Your screed is nothing but one erroneous assumption after another. You have not given any reason why it is beneficial to destroy Greece aside for these tiresome pleas of yours. Most of it is worthless though there are several points I will comment on.

Because you prey on fear. Your entire discourse is shaped by threat, apocalypse and fear of the 'other.' Bitter old men like you have manipulated young people into fighting useless wars since time began.

The fear you speak of is the undeniable fact based on history. You are the one who preys on fear. The “mass murdering”, apocalyptic scenario that will be a reality if we simply stop immigration. You never did answer how that would lead to mass murder, though do not bother. I have a strong inkling what your answer will be. I also am not bitter at all, nor old. I simply have realized which way the world is headed and I do NOT like it for me, but more importantly for my children and their children. I do not want them to be foreigners in their own land.

Your side of the aisle has nothing going for it except persistence and volume.

LOL and data, history to fall back on, logic, present day failures of your ideology, social unrest in western states due to your ideology, wealth transfer into an abyss, draconian “hate” laws, speech and thought suppression, intolerance directed at us, study after study on the catastrophe that awaits us economically, culturally, and racially. Is this the volume you speak of? The voluminous evidence that destroys your plea?

Re Balkans: Meanwhile, wars and civil wars have been stirred up by many, many ethnocentric orators who thought they might have something to gain from violence and chaos.

Wars have been fought because the people within these regions rarely if ever tolerated each other. These people, even in the same village, lived separately. Of course there were intermarriages, though that will happen however for the most part, people extremely close genetically and culturally were separate. It is the people who were the impetus to civil strife and not some “ethnocentric warmonger”.

Unlike you, I do not fear my neighbors….Why don't you spend some time with these people, ethnoc, before you go condemning them? You'll find their stories are not so different from your parents'. But then you can't see past skin color.

This is so blatantly wrong and presumptuous it is not even funny. You presume, probably due to the indoctrination that I can only be some closet racist that couldn’t pick a South Asian from an African from an Albanian. You see, I have read THEN I researched. I am surrounded by Chinese, both mainland and Hong Kong, South Asians primarily from India and Bangladesh, Arabs from the Middle East, Iranians and even some Turks. I have had these people into my home and consider many, actual friends. I have travelled extensively and have seen European cities and have spoken at great length and depth with many of the natives that I have met through business. I have gotten to know a few Ethiopians and Somalis and I know all too well the West African low IQ niggers in the US. I know and tremendously respect one black man who is an absolute genius. He puts anyone here to shame in intelligence. HE can’t stand the blacks in the US, neither can the Ethiopians or Somalis. Let’s not even mention the Mexican horde that has visions of reconquering the entire US and not only the Southwest. You see, I KNOW people and KNOW the cultures and customs of many, though not all. On an individual basis, we can always find the “good” ones. The problem ALWAYS arises when that critical mass is reached and the community becomes self contained. They are ALWAYS tribal. Always. They are not weighed down by the moral dilemma that whites, like you are. They look out for their own interests and act accordingly. Most recent case in point is the recent elections in Germany. The Turkish vote was all or nearly all Schroeder who was pro-immigration. Gee, what does that say? They looked at all the points and found Merkel lacking? LOL I don’t think so and neither do you. So you see, I do not learn about immigrants from afar. I actually speak, eat, and drink with them. I still do NOT want the west and Greece to be full of them.

Who is going to pay for
A) flights, ships, cattlecars back to everyone's countries of origin?
B) the lost labour and absolutely vital tax revenue that these people provide?
C) the pensions of every Greek citizen for the next 100 years?
D) enforcement of your draconian immigration policy?


These are the wrong questions. The questions you should be asking is what will the cost be if we do not stop the immigration fiasco. Your concerns are miniscule to the cost of what will be if not aborted immediately. Also with “C” above, do you think that foreigners will happily be taxed to pay for the pensions of aging Greeks? LOL Do you think that once they have the large enough numbers, these pensions will evaporate and so will the pensioners?

Ellasdevil wrote something really moving about Oxi day, you should read that. But then, you're a Nazi sympathizer, so you probably wouldn't like it.

I read it. It was touching. And I do NOT appreciate being constantly libelled. If one does not engorge themselves with leftist dogma then they must be a Nazi. This is puerile and mendacious. But it is not unexpected from the left.

Not everyone looks at a map of the world and divides it along color lines, seeing demography as the be-all and end-all of human existence - I think that's just you and your friends. You've noted that no nation in the European Union has such laws. You might call that 'racial suicide' but there are 350 million 'white' people who don't agree with you. They voted on it.

The EU will collapse under its own bureaucratic weight in 5 to 10 years. This same beacon of enlightenment is also the one that has trampled over the will of the people regarding immigration and the Turkish issue. So it has already veered from the what the people “voted for”, hasn’t it?

But that's beyond you, you just grew up in your lily-white suburb,

Oh yes, and this is such a terrible thing. So evil this “lily-white” neighbourhood that was free of violence, poverty, crime, rapes, murders, guns. Your diversity neighbourhoods are so much “better”. You seething contempt for anything white is pathologic.

The truth is, I won't pick up my baseball bat and meet you on the corner because I'm a bleeding heart liberal, fighting for the love of the huddled masses. I'll do it because I don't like you.

Your big ending. Unfortunately Scarfi, you may not find that stereotypical old, short, fat, balding Greek who is only full of bluster that will be waiting for you on that corner. I fear no individual man nor group of men. What I do fear is the totalitarian enslavement of my people, both immediate and proximate. I fear the persecution and the brutality that has been the hallmark of every single Marxist state ever in existence. You coming at me with a bat? LOL Hardly.


SeaWitch,

Needless to say I am quite surprised at your closeted wranglings away from prying eyes. Your calls of “hatred, xenophobia, misguided quasi-debates” and giving someone enough rope etc. Yes, I read Melusina’s blog as well. I read these blogs out of interest and unfortunately you opened a hornet’s nest with this topic. As you can see it is quite a visceral subject though some made it into a slugfest. However, you being Canadian, I understand your “indignation”. A country where they have allowed the “ethnic cleansing” of whites from Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. A place that wants even more immigrants, according to that imbecile Liberal Paul Martin, because they will supposedly shore up the tax base, despite the admonishment from the Frasier Institute that has blatantly said that the new immigrants are a financial drain and not a boon for the country. A place where in Toronto, the most expensive real estate is white enclaves within the sea of third worldism. A place that has had a rash of shootings this past year, predominately over the summer, and 90% were due to blacks. A place where blacks now want separate treatment consisting of separate schools, separate treatment in the initial phases of the judicial system, and black citizen overseers of the police. This despite that the police force is one of the most multicultural entities in the country. A place where Winnipeg, yes Winnipeg is beginning to have African black gang violence and is dubbed the ”murder capital”. Yes, that is the place you come from. Fortunately, not all Canadians suffer this faux indignation. Many are quite upset at this tremendous loss of a country. Not enough though because tolerance, by whites only, reigns supreme.

Regardless of all that, what shocked me is your cheerleading of Flux’s vulgar word salad and Scarfi’s violence alluding rhetoric. This is the tolerant Canuck shining through, I presume. Also, this reference to voices of reason and screaming banshees, did you ever think that we “screaming banshees” are actually not screaming at all but only putting forth an argument that is going unanswered due to a sheer lack of counter? Did you ever think that the only person actually screaming is your Flux? Did you guys ever think that the reason no one is coming to the rescue for your side is that people are just fed up with this absurdity that we find ourselves in? I’m actually surprised there are readers here that are on MY side. I thought for sure I would have to go it alone.

Oh, don’t worry about looking for this on some website SeaWitch, it is all original prose.


Melusina,

The only thing I want to say to you is that your knowledge of history is sorely lacking and drenched in PC. Just a little info, the African slave trade brought over ~600 to 700 thousand slaves in its entirety to the US. There were a total of ~ 5 to 6 million blacks that left Africa. These numbers are undisputed except by the most Afrocentrics. Most of the blacks that were brought to the US were BOUGHT by whites and not “enslaved”. The enslavement occurred by blacks and Arabs. They are the ones who sold them to the US whites. Some whites did enslave, though this number is miniscule. The remainder of the blacks went to South America and the Arab world and even to China. These blacks were treated inhumanely until their deaths. The Arabs and Chinese castrated most of the males. The US is the place that gave them their freedoms and the US is the only place that is vilified for slavery. No one utters a peep about the enslaving that is occurring as we speak in Africa by Africans, but there is no shortage of vitriol and rhetoric that is heaped upon whites in the US.

Also, every race has suffered enslavement, including whites. Approximately 1.5 million white Christians were enslaved by the Muslim raids from 1500 to 1800. Two books that you should read to educate yourself are “The Slave Trade” by Hugh Thomas and “Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters” by Robert C. Davis. Don’t worry, they won’t “whiten” your skin because they are written by historians and not white supremacists.



Diva,

I don’t know who said it, but you are extremely self-absorbed. Your histrionics are legendary. You write about extremely sensitive things as a foreigner in a country that is kind enough to be your host and when confronted, quite harshly, you go running to your friends for rallying support. Rosa Parks you’re not. This isn’t for the meek and timid, I’m afraid. It’s all fun and games when your readers are of like mind, however you’ve discovered the realities of how seriously people take this and who happen to disagree with quite an arsenal of “racist” facts.


Flux,

I don’t have much to say to you that hasn’t already been said. One thing though is that there is no shortage of guitarists in Greece. Maybe Turkey or Persia can utilize your talents, you “world citizen”, you. Know that this Greek “nigger” cleaned your clock.


Thanos,

I respect you. You’re a good man and NO Marxist. Here that Flux?


To the rest, Gyge, Wotan, and all the rest of the true Greek and European nationalists, thanks for the support. I’m extremely happy to see that the fire truly is burning and growing. I'll be around, just not here.


Fuck, I feel I’m making a speech at the Oscars or something. Yes, yes Flux the “Neo-Nazi” Oscars. Hilarious. With that, I’m spent. Yasas.

Ethno...with regards to your posts. I will say one thing. You haven't (to my knowledge) resorted to plagiarism or disjointed writing in order to express your views. I do appreciate that. You've also done your best to respond to most of the questions thrown at you here...something else that most people who subscribe to your beliefs don't do.

"...then reposted by the blog owner akin to a high school cheerleader when her football playing boyfriend wants to beat up another classmate, that is a sure indication that the argument is won"

I reposted that paragraph of Scarf's because I really do agree with him. Because he said he WOULDN'T resort to violence just because he didn't like you. I also like the fact that Flux does not back down, shrivel into a whimpering ball in the corner just because he has been insulted. He's not a fence-sitter. Neither are you for that fact. If you've read my posts on other blogs, then you will know exactly where I stand on the issue of human rights, xenophobia, and immigration. I've stated it dozens of time on dozens of sites including my own. If you agree with someone else...does that qualify you as a cheerleader? I became tired of the long-winded tirades that just rehashed the same old rants I've seen so many times on other forums...such as Justiniano's.

I've also agreed with you (and even complimented you) on several points that you've made as well. I don't think that qualifies as being your "cheerleader" either. I have not called YOU a screaming banshee.

As I've said before, this is not the only forum where you will find my posts. If you honestly think I post "closeted wrangligs", you have not read the rest of my blogs. I state my position very clearly UPFRONT AND CENTRE for the whole world to read if they want. And they have not changed or been diluted to appease anyone, anywhere. Your posts however, ONLY appear on other people's sites, like mine, Mel's, Diva's or Phylax's. My posts are never written "away from prying eyes"...if they were, why is it that I've received 200 replies to just this blog topic alone? Not to mention the responses from other blogs. That's why I have a blog site...I WANT people to read my posts otherwise I'd keep a little diary by my bedside for my eyes only. How you arrived at the conclusion that I only state my opionions in secret is, therefore, not validated.

Many people DO resort to vindictive, personal attacks on others...far worse than what I've seen in here and I was referring to them as well. Your posts aren't the only ones I read and this blog isn't the only place I make my stance clear.

ethnocentrist. "I don’t know who said it, but you are extremely self-absorbed. Your histrionics are legendary. You write about extremely sensitive things as a foreigner in a country that is kind enough to be your host and when confronted, quite harshly, you go running to your friends for rallying support. Rosa Parks you’re not. This isn’t for the meek and timid, I’m afraid. It’s all fun and games when your readers are of like mind..."

How dare you? You insult. You sulk. You stomp. You rant and then you sign off with a great diatribe about how reasonable and intelligent you (and all those who agree with you are) while the rest of us are sad little misguided fools. Yes. I gave up at one point. I was hurt. And I asked my friends for support. And yes, they urged me to keep writing. So if you see that as meek and timid, so be it. I have stood up to your bullying and insults without rudeness and attacks. I write from a personal point of view. That's how I write. If you see that as self-absorbed, so be it. I have never compared myself to Rosa Parks or any one else who has struggled long and hard to achieve change. I have a blog and I contribute to other people's blogs. I have never acted or written that I do any more than that. So please. Get off my back, have some respect and in the end, if you don't like people disagreeing with you, stop writing to blogs where you are going to find them.

I was over at Discarded Lies last night as you know. I haven't laughed so much in a long time. It was a relief after all the crap I have taken from you.

I hope this is the last post I will ever write to you.

There is a heavy dollop of Stone Age grunts,yawps and other forms of oral flatulence to stir up the ever restless thirld worlders.All we can hope is that these washed out white or pseudo white scribblers end up in the cannibal's pot ,once the fire is lit. Shameless racial renegades or reverse evolutionists.
Only a few of us can understand enough history to know that these invaders are inalterably different and have been programmed to destroy what they pretend to adapt to and absorb. We are being done in by the parasitism at the top and barbarism at the bottom.

China tightens the screws on racial eugenics, in contrast the West loosens it. China with 1.4 billion people have embarked on a massive , comprehensive eugenics program.
Assylum seekers, illegal immigrants, legal immigrants need not apply in any case, refugees , Helsinky watch, human rights violators, all out there heed the warning.China is unwelcomed territory for racial stragglers.
According to the a Chinese news agency source, the new laws are aimed at people likely to pass on congenital illnesses or defects to their children. Mandatory sterilization is enforced of the mentally retarded in the impoverished province of Gantsu.
The immediate goal of the local officials is to sterilize most of 360.000 mentally retarded residents.

Those crunching thuds you are hearing are the bodies of liberals who have fainted dead away at the mere thought of such a concept.
Wait to hear the cacophony of sounds hitting the air waves from the sclerotic western media, "Fascism, Hitlerism will dominate their fetid cries.
The chinese appear to be bringing compulsory population control onto center stage.

In the meanwhile their project plans for the peaceful conquest of the West gets into high gear. Millions of chinese rejects are going to be siphoned off to the West in the decades ahead.The sophisticated and efficient juggernaut of the criminal ring of people smuggling and people trafficiking attains promethean proportions.
The yellow Asian penetration will pose another life and death struggle for the European. Is this development a historical and racial process ? Yes it is.
The stronger ,more vital and more daring race pushes out a weaker one. To attempt to establish some sort of blame or guilt on the yellow tide it is as preposterous as piling obloquy on the Europeans for manifesting themselves against the invader and resist the conquest in the making by any means available.
Nature, a cold mistress, is unforgiving and cares nothing for human agony. The european expansion outside Europe was part of a natural process, the overflowing of the life force from its European cradle. Who cries when a lion brings down an antelope ? We recognize the kill to be a law of nature. Who begrudges the leader of a wolf pack his harem ?
Dishonesty in history is the worst sort of academic flim flam. Lies in the physical sciences are soon found out. Lies and mendacity about our past need to be uncovered, not to do so can warp and twist our understanding of the real world.

"There is nothing permanent but change" said Heraclitus, one man wins, another loses, one lives ,another dies, one procreates, another masturbates and watches his bloodline die out.
Life is no piece of cake, parties,cannabis, weeping sentimentality. Mother nature is red in tooth and claw. Her only interest in us is to see that we reproduce. How and when and where is not her concern.

There is no fairness in life, no mercy, no second chance. If we Europeans, we Greeks, allow Asians, blacks and mongrels to overhelm us and expel or exterminate us, few will mourn our dissapearance.

There will be no court of appeal when the land our ancestors, of Termopilae, Salamis, Misolonghi, gave their all to win is taken back from us, and we leave our children withour their birthright.
There will only be the grim smile of the Almighty pondering the foolishness of His creatures.

Justiniano, Good Grief. Not even going to bother.

On a lighter note, I will be hiding in my house tomorrow. Not because I hate parades (although I'm really not into them) I hate the low flying jets. They scare the knickers off me.

My son took part in the school "oxi day" celebrations today. I felt strange again for standing for prayers (out of respect for others) but not "doing my cross" but that's another story. Lots of the other parents are non- religious like me.

What was wonderful was to see the kids doing their play. The content was a bit uninspired but they enjoyed performing especially the bit where they outwit the german soilders to get bread to the Greek army.

As I scanned the crowd of proud parents and delighted kids, my mind wandered back to the venom and bile that has been spewed on this post.

In the school there are a few black, mixed- race greek children (with greek GRANDPARENTS for those who care about those things), there are greek children of russian, albanian and turkish descent, greek-american and at least one dutch greek kid. All of them sang and performed with such pride and exitement while their parents took pictures and video of the performance. And afterwards we wished each other a happy three day holiday and went home.

Now I am aware that underneath the smiles and waves there may be feelings of resentment and even hatred but it was the kids that got me feeling so happy. They really did charge into the playground happy. Together. They achieved something that kids care about. That they pleased their teacher, they pleased their parents, they did well and they had a great deal of fun doing it.

Call me a sappy liberal lefty peabrained softy marxist all you like.

It was a breath of fresh air after suffocating in here for such a long time.

I know this was just a fleeting moment and kids grow up and make different choices and decisions BUT, just for now, they were kids having a good time

Thanks for a bright ray of light in this dark, dark thread, diva. You're the business.

Yes, I am well aware that other countries enslave people. I am well aware that the African slaves were enslaved by traders in Africa and sold to the white man. That white man can consider a person an object, regardless of whether or not "that was the way", is shameful.

I've had my share of right leaning tendencies. I make politically incorrect jokes. Everyone is my target, I judge myself and "my kind" as harshly as anyone else. But in the end, I don't judge people by the color of their skin, their religion, where they are from but by the type of person they are. By their intelligence, their kindness, their wit.

I can understand the immigration issue, even if I don't agree with the nationalistic side of it. The fact that there are refugees, so many, where do they go? Where should they go? Why shouldn't they have a chance? No, I don't think they should all necessarily come to Greece, or Italy, or Spain, or the countries where most end up.

As to the white supremacist notions of the nationalistic Greeks here, you do realize that, when push comes to shove, they Aryans don't consider Greeks to be white? Italians too. Your dark hair and eyes, all the hair, would be considered a stain. I've heard Aryans say that about Greeks and Italians all my life. It has been no secret that white supremacist groups have been recruiting well outside their "standard" for years now, even Jews, to expand their cause. God forbid "white power" ever wins, because there goes my husband. And probably me, even though I'm a WASP princess, because I joined with a "dirty" Greek.

As to all the who did what bad things in history arguments, what is the point really? The reality is that every race, culture, and religion has done very bad things. Are some worse than others? I don't really think so. I think, unfortunately, every race, every religion in the world is pretty much equal in this regard. We are ALL responsible.

You are right in one regard though - it is probably pointless for the leftist, Marxist, nameyourlabelhere people to keep fighting this fight for tolerance. But in the same regard, the other battles are just as pointless. People will continue being what they are. Even so, I won't stop feeling the way I do, just as the nationalists in our midst won't stop feeling the way they do.

Some important points.


SeaWitch,

Reread the last paragraph from Scarfi again. In it he states that he will not use a bat for the "huddled masses", but will for the simple fact that he "does not like me". That is the meaning of his statement. I do understand why you reposted it now.

Melusina,

A few points worth considering.

That white man can consider a person an object, regardless of whether or not "that was the way", is shameful.

Leftists are eager to judge the sins of whites from the past with present day ideology and morality. Yet, I have never seen any leftist judge any other race's trangressions of the past nor present. As I said in my last post, Africans are enslaving other Africans in Africa in this current day and age. That is NOW, 2005. Yet there is nary a wimper from the black race hustlers to this effect, nor from the white liberal bleeding hearts. They are monomaniacal and their targets are whites only.

As to the white supremacist notions of the nationalistic Greeks here, you do realize that, when push comes to shove, they Aryans don't consider Greeks to be white? Italians too.

While this is true and there is a small fraction of White Supremacists that are extreme fringe and believe this, along with wearing their Nazi uniforms and being Hitlerphiles, the majority of white racialists, or separatists, or nationalists or whatever do not. This is but another "scare" tactic that is used by the left to plunge a wedge between any unity that is white and to lull whites into complacency towards acceptance of the upcoming pogroms. We'll have to cross that bridge when we get to it. To try and avoid it by essentially creating hundreds if not thousands of inter-ethnic conflicts in the interim is irrational and ludicrous.

The human species is flawed. It is tribal and territorial, period. These instincts are deeply ingrained. They are suppressed yet are never removed. One need a thorough understanding of the entire world history to see that conflicts have been with us from the beginning of time and will be with us up until the day we cease as a species. This is a human flaw and NOT ONLY a white flaw. To bring exponentially MORE tribal people into our midst to create harmony and peace is a "religion" I do not subscribe to. Most people, aside from the truly deranged, treat others as individuals however this is but another strawman because no one says you cannot like or fall in love with Mr or Mrs Wong, or Singh, or Mugabe, or whatever. The problem arises when you accept 3 or 4 million of them in a country of 10 million. They no longer are individuals but an entire group that wants its culture, identity, rights, language, religion, beliefs, ethnic laws, schools, dress etc. There are real and discernable entities such as tribalism, Social Identity Theory, Group Identity, ethnic genetic interests,and Evolutionary Psychology that tell us it is not as simple as 6 billion individuals where the recipe for happiness is for us to get to know one another. Conflicts have happened, are currently happening, and will continue to happen due to the above and no amount of pleading for humanitarianism and individualism will change that. None.

Any healthy individual values his blood, his parents,his family ,his nation , his race first and foremost. Any person that wastes an ounce of energy philosophying about protecting and advancing the interests of other races other than his own is an altruistic murderer. The crisis is much deeper than it seems, a uniform mental conditioning to think an act in a standard fashion is the vogue. The masses , the mish mash mixing of high breeds and lower breeds require to adopt and internalize a uniform brutalized mass culture. (Any breed outside Europe is low breed, incapable of creating a civilization, maintaining it or advancing it)

Anyone calling for a greater safeguard of his racial gene pool is excoriated as mercilessly as possible. In that respect we Europeans have perhaps outmatched the Americans in their lassitude and racial torpor and genocidal program to brownwash the European racial genome. Not long ago , in England, a one Enoch Powell a professor of Ancient Greek,was pilloried and treated as an illiterate blackguard for vehemently opposing racial suicide before the onslaught of the Asian immigration.

The mass culture is spreading like a velvet sulphourous slime. Whether in England, Germany or Holland, the same Stone Age pop art dominates the exhibitions. The same excremental tinsel and hardcore pornography exercise their depredations on the theater. The same minority racial themes, the refugee, the asylum seeker, the immigrant obsess the literati. The same African syncopations echo through the dance halls and rock concerts,in supermarkets muzzaks, and backgroung jungle sounds in store and shops. In fact ,the more influential culture vultures now feather their nests all across Europe. Europe is being turned into a cultural catacomb.

Like the promoters of the Melting Pot fantasy, the salesmen of pluralism have misread history, which teaches that pluraslistic societies are static and an invitation to disorder and disaster. Historically disoriented, the voices of pluralism are also dramatically contradictory. They are opposed to racism in theory, but support black, brown and yellow racism in practice. They uphold group identity, but demand forced misgeneation, inclusiveness and integration.
Meanwhile the European social order totters, we in Greece are not beyond hope,along in the grip of racial tension which is both the cause and effect of pluralism and multiculturalism. The European mosaic with non white and non Europeans elements is turning into a monumental failure.

In Greece heroes like Metaxas are in short supply, Europe appears to have run out of them completely.

Like in 1941, Oxi to the invasion of Greece.Oxi to the Tsunami from the East, and the black and brown tide from the south.

Wow.

Ethnocentrist's last post signifies - I think - the closest we'll get to agreeing. I agree with most of what you said.

Realism. Let's forget fantasies, whether they be "pure race" or "a brotherhood of all mankind". The truth lies in the middle as always. Setting our disagreements aside (they are many, on genetics, culture etc etc), I can agree with most of what Ethnocentrist wrote. Immigration does need to be regulated and while individuals should be treated with respect, the issue on the whole should be taken seriously.

However, what human beings are we if we cannot transcend realism? As humans of any race we need to better ourselves. And that means looking past race, coming together, finding a way to coexist, draw on each other's strengths, progress and evolve together.

As for Justiniano... *yaaaawn* Tired old rhetoric, no arguments, just blah blah blah. I don't see you responding to anything, anything at all: Are we "pure greeks" and even more "pure aryans"? Does it matter? What about the immigrants' strengths that could benefit our country? I heard a father on the news today say "I withdrew my child from the parade, because why should she follow the albanian (who was carrying the flag)". Ask yourself that? Why do foreigners excel while we live in sloth? Are we worthy of continuation? What needs to be done? Perhaps you'll find that the answer lies not with the immigrants, but with ourselves. What morality, what culture, what progress, what science do we create as greeks today?

Wake up Justiniano, throw the "party leaflets" away and start thinking for yourself. Read, study, experience others and yourself. Then argue your point.

Leftists are eager to judge the sins of whites from the past with present day ideology and morality. Yet, I have never seen any leftist judge any other race's trangressions of the past nor present. As I said in my last post, Africans are enslaving other Africans in Africa in this current day and age. That is NOW, 2005. Yet there is nary a wimper from the black race hustlers to this effect, nor from the white liberal bleeding hearts. They are monomaniacal and their targets are whites only.

Well, I've blogged and posted on other sites about things going on in Africa a few times. I have severe opinions about the Middle East and the Turks and how they treat people. I judge those things just as much as I judge any white transgressions. Obviously, I am more concerned with the shameful acts of the white man because I am white.

The thing is, you can have a country full of white people and still have problems. We can wipe every race save the whites off the face of the earth and we won't stop fighting. People are people. I won't ever exclude whites from any wrongdoing because, as I said, we are all responsible.

And if you really think Greeks are pure, white blood, think again. It isn't a scare tactic. It is reality.

By the way, I am really glad Justiniano has mastered the use of copy and paste. He is well on his way to learning how to use a computer!

If no culture outside Europe has had a successful civilzation, how do you explain the success of the Japanese?

Thanos is urging me to think. I will try to think for you Thanos, but spare me if I disappoint you.

There are some truths ( truth is unique, it does not evolve, if it were to evolve it was not truth in the first place ; therefore I have excrutiating discomfort at Thanos's reference to "old slogans and party leaflets" what party ? the communist party, the anarchist party of the mobocratic parties of contemporary times ?) which are so obvious that for this very reason they are not seen or at least not recognised by ordinary people.
In this line men without exception wander about in the garden of Nature; they imagine that they know practically everything and yet with few exceptions pass blindly by one of the most patent principles of Nature's rule : the inner segregation of the species of all living beings on this earth.

Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same levels produces a medium between the level of two parents; this means that the offspring will probably stand higher than the racially lower parent but not as high as the higher one. Consequently it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life. The higher breed must assert, dominate and not blend with the lower breed thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man.

(Extrapolate this across nations and you can obtain the phantasmagoria of contemporary Hades. The non-white flotsam projecting itself and hurling themselves against the citadels of the white men and civilization.Their banner is "equality. fraternity, sexual freedom, open borders, freedom of movement,human right, et al" . Alas all this panaceas of wisdom are in one way only, towards the white men environment and not toward the non-white living areas. A simple mathematical calculation by a 5th grader can yield the inescable result from such unnatural practices.)

Did I read someone speaking about wiping out of races ? Who is wiping who may I ask ? Who is proposing this so called wiping ? I don't see wave after wave of European white men invading Asian or African space mating with the natives and bastardizing them.

The inferior always predominates numerically over the best ( The Indians, Pakistanies, Chinese, African, they reproduce like rodents, and they must provide living space for their teeming millions of their coal black and dark critters, incapable of solving their own demographic contretemps, they expect the white men to sacrifice himself and resign his patrimony ), if both had the same possibility of preserving life and propagating, the inferior would multiply so much more rapidly that in the end the best would inevitably be driven
into the backgound.
The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following:

A. Lowering of the level of the higher races, the European white

B. Physical and intellectual regression .

Here of course we encounter the objection of the modern pacifist, lover of mankind, the champion of the human, as truly inhuman in its effrontery as it is stupid. Man's role to overcome Nature .

Millions thoughtlessly parrot this cosmopolitan ,egalitarian nonsense, though in doing so they dispose of no other weapon than an idea, and at that such a miserable one, that if it were true no world at all would be conceivable.

The immigration/invasion of Greece is non negotiable, and our Greeks are not cannon fodder for any multiracial experiment.

One of the writers has admonished me to "THINK" and also accuses me of not having read any books.

I think it was Thanos.

Thanos, would you kindly advise me what books do I need to read ?

Roots ?, the 25th hour ? Exodus ?. the diary of Anne Frank ? or "Walk to Freedom ?, or maybe Karl Marx manifesto, or "Fidel's march to Havana from Sierra Maestra ?

"The truth is, I won't pick up my baseball bat and meet you on the corner because I'm a bleeding heart liberal, fighting for the love of the huddled masses. I'll do it because I don't like you. "

Ethno...I think I misread his post when I thought he was saying he wouldn't pick up a baseball bat. Re-reading it again through your eyes, I must admit that you are probably right and that he would take a baseball bat to you because he didn't like you. I certainly don't advocate beating up people just because they don't like what someone else has to say. And for that, I owe you an apology for having misread his intention. For all the things we have disagreed, Ethno...I would never in a million years, beat you up for it (or anyhone else for that matter) nor would I condone anyone else doing so.

Seawitch -

You're right of course. My final comment was not intended as a threat and no one should take it as one. I meant to illustrate in no uncertain terms that I'm willing to put my ass on the line for what I believe. Unlike...anyway. If the racists try to push their agenda here in my country, they will meet stiff resistance.

Thanos -

I read and re-read ethnoc's last post (I thought he was gone?), and while I admire your search for common ground, it's obvious he has not changed his position one iota. He still advocates laws based solely on 'race,' even while offering a token and contradictory mumble about treating people as individuals. I don't see any reason why slightly more moderate rhetoric is better than the usual stuff, it all means the same thing.

We all agree that immigration needs to be regulated somehow. The current situation (no consistent policy, no asylum, spotty enforcement) is harmful for everyone. Not least of all the Greek citizens who want to live under the rule of law in a humanitarian society.

Immigration, both legal and illegal, is not going to stop for a very long time. It is up to us to find a process that allows us to live as human beings, not camp guards. We've already heard from the camp guards.

Just a couple notes, first in response to Justiniano's post, but directed towards all of course:

I will look past the blatant racism (that's his right) and will try to correct a - minor at first glance, but quite serious actually - misconception:

We are all the same species: Homo sapiens

Thus, while Justiniano's observations might hold true for horses, donkeys and mules (the "medium" offspring), they do not apply to the human species. Sorry.

Now, you might say that the same is true for race, but - well - it's not. Different races of the same species can procreate and the offspring can (and usually is eventually) much better than the originals, better equipped to adapt to different environments, drawing upon the strengths of both parents. Sometimes inheriting weaknesses too, but the total vector of evolution points up.

As for this:

Here of course we encounter the objection of the modern pacifist, lover of mankind, the champion of the human, as truly inhuman in its effrontery as it is stupid. Man's role to overcome Nature .

Millions thoughtlessly parrot this cosmopolitan ,egalitarian nonsense, though in doing so they dispose of no other weapon than an idea, and at that such a miserable one, that if it were true no world at all would be conceivable.


Do you advocate that we just go around behaving like animals? Strong males dominating and killing off weaker ones, gathering harems of females, raiding other groups, taking whatever they want? I don't think so.

After all you speak of culture and achievements. What is culture if not domination over nature? Especially white culture! The whole point of the white man is to rise above the mundane, create ethereal art, music, architecture. And so much more.

Thus, I think, racism is so beneath the white man and if you will therefore, a sign of decay, of weakness... of primitive thought, unterkultur and evolutionary regression.

Man's destiny is upwards and onwards. And yes, this means overcoming racial prejudices, true strengths and weaknesses. It means combining, coming together, working in unison. Now, I don't need you to realize this is a utopia. Ask yourselves why and you might be surprised.

The student in question wht this frst came up was in fact also an Albanian citizen.

When we talk about immigrants in Greece this is not like immigrants in the US. EG The Albanian immigrants maintain homes and citizenship in Albania.

The Greeks are celebrating the response and fight against the Germans, Italians AND Albanians who almost univisally fought with the Nazis.

It is unfortunate that the issue focused on the youg boy, who certainly distinguished himself, but it is pretty much like questioning whyanyonoe would feel strange if a German kid, born in Germany, was to carry the flag at a celebration by the French or Polish resistance.

Races of people are not fungible material, therefore the homo sapiens umbrella covering all fornication and genocidal crossing under the sun is sure a remedy for disgenic catastrophe. The original core race is supplanted by a new and fangled form of a racial hybrid type.
In actual fact the pacifistic -humane idea is perfectly all right perhaps when the highest type of man has previously conquered and subjected the world to an extent that makes him the sole ruler of the earth. Then this idea lacks the power of producing evil effects in exact proposrtion as its practical application becomes rare and finally impossible. Therefore firs struggle and then perhaps pacifism. Otherwise mankind has passed the high point of its development and the end is not the domination of any ethical idea but barbarism,corruption and consequently chaos.

This planet once moved through the ether for millions of years without human beings and it can do so again some day if man forget that they owe their higher existence , not to the ideas of a few crazy ideologists,but to the knowledge and ruthless application of Nature's stern and rigid laws.
Everything we admire today , on this earth, e.g science,art, technology and inventions is only the creative product of a few peoples and originally perhaps one race, the European. On them depends the existence of this whole culture. If they perish , the beauty of this earth will sink into the grave with them.

All great cultures of the past perished only because the originally creative race died out from blood poisoning. ( Mix and cross a healthy Hellene with a mongol, an African, a Pakistani, a brown or yellow specimen and the blood of the Hellene has been irretrievably poisoned).
The ultimate cause of such a decline was their forgetting that all culture depends on men and not conversely ; hence that to preserve a certain culture the man who creates it must be preserved.
Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.
If this sounds harsh, that is how it is. Assuredely , however, by far the harsher fate is that which strikes the man who thinks he can overcome Nature, but in the last analysis only mocks her.Distress, disease,misfortune are her answer.
All the human culture, all the results of art, science,and technology that we see before us today , are almost exclusively the creative product of the white race. The idea of race mixing is abhorrent, the wrong kind of immigration patterns ensures criminal displacement of the original people in their own lands. The ideological motivation for these crimes is often a radical or extreme egalitarianism, which seeks to abolish all inequalities by abolishing all distinctions, differences and diversity, as well as values and standards. A brazen and monstrous nihilism. As moral nihilism commonly asserts that morality does not exist, so racial nihilism often denies the existence of races, claiming that nothing exists to preserve or conserve. This is racial deconstructionism, the ideological annihilation of race ot ideologiacal reduction of race to nothingness, defining race out of existence by deconstructing it. The disease is nursed and nurtured in the equalitarian lullabies of the Oneness goal of One world, one race.
The modern multiracial society is a wasteland, the one world one race dream provides an effective vehicle to promote erasure of whites , as it allows the European race no rights in its own territory,independence or existence but would consign the European to a multiracial melting pot by permitting non stop invasion of the most fecund races of the thirld world into its living space.
Racial conservation has much in common with the conservation of the environment and Nature. A symposium would be held on how to protect the preservation of a group of seals, but no such symposium would be allowed for the preservation of the European race.

I don't have much to contribute - not much further at least, I'll just ask a question again, the only one we need ask really. But first an observation or two - again.

Races of people are not fungible material, therefore the homo sapiens umbrella covering all fornication and genocidal crossing under the sun is sure a remedy for disgenic catastrophe

It's not an umbrella, it's fact. Whether we like it or not, the brownie, the paki, the chink, the spick, whatever you may call them (I probably misspelled them, sorry) and us, the high white man, we are all the same species. In essence, the same. Subtle differences here and there, but all in all very much alike. Get used to that.

The original core race

Arguably, the original race is the black race. I don't know if this fits your ideology (and I'm certainly not sure I agree, scientifically), but I have to admit, early indications seem to confirm this... original man was black.

Everything we admire today , on this earth, e.g science,art, technology and inventions is only the creative product of a few peoples and originally perhaps one race, the European.

I am sure you have heard of "other civilizations". Egyptians ring a bell? Persians? Chinese? Japanese? Mesoamericans? Indians? All rich cultures, with plenty of art, literature, architecture, philosophy, science. None of them european. I'm not saying Europe did not create culture, I'm not saying europeans are not significant. But they are not the only ones out there. Not to mention that the culture "output" if you like is different even within Europe. So what? Are there "good" europeans and "bad"? Advanced and not? Tiny sub-races within the white race?

All great cultures of the past perished only because the originally creative race died out from blood poisoning. ( Mix and cross a healthy Hellene with a mongol, an African, a Pakistani, a brown or yellow specimen and the blood of the Hellene has been irretrievably poisoned).

Again, if that is true, we're screwed already. Our "pure" Hellenic blood has been mixed so many times with so many other genes, races, blood types... So, what do you say? Are we greek or aren't we? What do our genes say? Or is it perhaps not about genetics at all? History, language, religion, tradition. Hmm...

I'm not saying we should abandon all borders and throw caution to the wind. But paranoid delusions are a totally different thing.

Which brings me to my question, one I asked above, lost somewhere in so many comments:

What do you think the future of Greece would be if we had no immigrants? Imagine not one foreigner set foot in our land. Forget the "xenoi" for a minute. What culture, what science, what technology, what philosohpy have we produced in the years we have been a free nation? What industry, what craft, what art have we advanced? Even all that aside... we are aging. Dying out. In a few decades we might have ceased to exist altogether. A nation of old men reminiscing and few young fleeing to find prosperity somewhere else, away from the bleak prospect of supporting a huge home for the elderly.

Well?

Eye yie yie! It looks like I need to chime in here to straighten out some serious misconceptions. Let me start with Justiniano.

Justiniano,

While I agree with your passion and your concerns about European man, I am afraid you have bought too much of the supremacist and dare I say Nordicist ideals that is found on sites like Stormfront and Skadi. Many of things you say are correct though some are erroneous. Races and ethnicities have contributed to advanced of man. Some tremendously and others essentially not at all. Many are in between. While European man has contributed immensely, we are not the only ones who have contributed. I do not buy the only white is right mentality. I do not buy that "sub-human" designation of other races either. Because if we play that game, eventually the subdivision will not end at white vs non-white. It will continue INTO the white realm and as others alluded to, Greeks will not pass the muster of "white enough" by the Nordicist ideal. You not only play a dangerous game by doing that but also it is not a valid one as well, in my opinion.

I am AGAINST discrimination, oppression, and savagery directed at other races. I am AGAINST murder and genocide aimed at them as well. That is why I am AGAINST the machinations that are in place against European man because everything negative is in place against us and we are slotted for a slow genocide. I am for separation and freedom of association with ourselves. I am for preservation of whites as a whole and Greece, specifically.

Thanos,

Arguably, the original race is the black race. I don't know if this fits your ideology (and I'm certainly not sure I agree, scientifically), but I have to admit, early indications seem to confirm this... original man was black.

Sorry, but this is pure Afrocentric garbage. Protohumans, be they from Africa or as newer evidence suggests, primates originated in Asia and migrated into Africa where they evolved into humans, were NOT black. This is smoke and mirror bullshit that is designed to lull whites into believing their "insignifance" in the grand scheme of things. The protohuman, homo sapiens were not like modern man in size, shape, skin color, amount of external body hair, teeth etc. To make such an absurd statement is below what you are capable of producing and simply goading Justiniano.

What culture, what science, what technology, what philosohpy have we produced in the years we have been a free nation? What industry, what craft, what art have we advanced? Even all that aside... we are aging. Dying out. In a few decades we might have ceased to exist altogether. A nation of old men reminiscing and few young fleeing to find prosperity somewhere else, away from the bleak prospect of supporting a huge home for the elderly.

You tell ME something. Do you not think that oppression and miscegenation, either electively or savagely with the Turk may have had something to do with this paucity of recent contributions by Greeks? Do you not think that genetics plays a role in human contributions with respect to strength, size, shape, thought, intelligence etc.? I sure do. Therefore, if a people are controlled and intermixed for at least 400 years, has this not had a negative effect on the culture and contributions of Greece? Of course you do. That is in essence what Justiniano is saying, though a bit harshly and inaccurately.

Back to Justiniano for a second, the notion we are the best is wrong if you take group IQ into effect. Whites are smart, yet there are groups who are smarter. East Asians and Jews consistently have scored higher than whites, as a group for an untold amount of time. This squashes the whites are the best notion because we cannot say we are the best in IQ. However, I know what you are saying about intermixing and where Thanos is completely wrong in his assertions that...

Different races of the same species can procreate and the offspring can (and usually is eventually) much better than the originals, better equipped to adapt to different environments, drawing upon the strengths of both parents. Sometimes inheriting weaknesses too, but the total vector of evolution points up.

Thanos, you have no way of proving that point and in fact, that assertion is highly likely to be wrong. Intermixing separate races to create a "better" race is dripping with Marxist ideology. We need look no further than the welfare state that has created the dumbest, slovenliest, laziest, most violent, low IQ blacks in the US. The welfare state promotes these people to procreate at ridiculously high rates because whites foot the bill. Therefore they procreate with other morons. Are you telling me that if whatever million whites necessary to intermix with these blacks will produce offspring that are better? Better than the one parental blacks, for sure, however the white genes will be comprimised and therefore the offspring will no doubt gravitate towards a mean in between the two. This is simple science and genetics that you should and do know.

SeaWitch,

An apology wasn't necessary, especially after your reasons for reposting the comment.

Scarfi,

Your comment was no "threat" but it did show the left's propensity and ease towards violence. This plea to stop "mass murder" was and is absurd. The mass murder will be against whites and the intolerance of the left will be the cause.

Also, I can post whenever I want. The reason for saying I will "essentially" not post anymore was because I sensed that SeaWitch was becoming irate and no longer wanted the topic continued so I was bowing out. If she has no problem with this topic to continue, then neither do I. I wasn't stopping for a lack of argument, that's for sure. Unlike you.

Second night of rioting in Paris

Saturday, October 29, 2005 Posted: 1143 GMT (1943 HKT)

PARIS, France (Reuters) -- Hundreds of French youths fought with police and set cars ablaze in a suburb of Paris early Saturday in a second night of rioting which media said was triggered when two teenagers died fleeing police.

The two teenagers were killed and a third seriously injured on Thursday night when they were electrocuted in an electricity sub station as they fled from police investigating a break-in, media reported.

Firefighters intervened around 40 times on Friday night in the northeastern suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois where many of the 28,000 residents are immigrants, mainly from Africa, police and fire officers said.

Unidentified youths fired a shot at police but no one was hurt, police said.

A police trade union called for help from the army to support police officers.

"There's a civil war underway in Clichy-Sous-Bois at the moment," Michel Thooris, an official of police trade union Action Police CFTC, said.

"We can no longer withstand this situation on our own. My colleagues neither have the equipment nor the practical or theoretical training for street fighting," he said.

Television pictures showed youths lobbing stones at police officers while cars burned on the streets of the suburb. Police in riot gear chased some youths down an alleyway.


CNN

The majesty of Paris, which to me is unparalleled amongst the major cities, has been reduced to the daily happenings of Palestine and Lebanon. Isn't this tolerance wonderful? Scarfi, is THIS the mass murder you were speaking of? I'm not sure what exactly you meant during your "eructations".

To be clear, one Muslim (or third worlder), no problem. Ten, no problem. Even a hundred or so. Twenty to twenty-five percent of the population? Major f**king problems. This is the future of the west and Greece if things do not drastically change. We will be prisoners in our own countries due to an untenable ideology.

We are still Greeks, and yes if we had been through the mixing threadmill of the past, we are suffering the consequences now. We should not aggravate it further by cohabiting with the inferior thirld worlders. The ancient civilizations of tha past need not concern us. They have been consigned to the pages of history, no Mubaraks,no Gamal Abdel Nassers, no Anwar Sadats are representatives of Egyptian civilization, they are simply the decayed matter that has been inherited by contemporary men. The Persians were Aryans ,white and similar to the Greeks of ancient times. Persia today is no bearer of that civilization. I am not decrying nor detracting from other groups , racial groups, civilizations and achievements, but these are no longer relevant today and it helps us,Europeans, not in our historical crucibles that lie ahead.
We must shed the guilty complexes about being white and resistance to the etiolation of our race as it appears to us now. If we can improve its present stock, selective eugenic planning is required, but it definitely will go into evolutionary regression, degeneration and racial deracination by fornicating with an African, a Mongol, a chinese, an Indian, or Pakistanies.

An entire race, the European race is being integrated to death. While the vast majority of all other races ( Blacks in Africa, Asians in Asia) remain as segregated as ever. Resistance to the trend does not make one a "forward looking-progressive human conservationist" but rather a genocidal racist. It can not be repeated often enough that modern racial integration is another great hoax of human history. Not Mankind but one race only is being integrated----to death---.
One looks in vain for evidence of integration in Peking, or Delhi or Lagos, finding instead only endless swarms of people of uniform color- yellow, brown and black respectively. The Cosmopolitan city of mixed race is an exclusive feature of the white world. Humanity as a whole is not about to turn a uniform brown color with non-descript features, only its white people, the boobos of history are.

To preserve the European, and by implication to preserve our greek nation and race, separatism and exclusion of non assimilable aliens is the only way. There are no exceptions to this rule.
The European, like the whites in America and Canada, appear to be in the process of physical and mental degeneration, which is producing the Ape within him and is leading us into chaotic pandemonium . If we have to carry the name tag of Supremacists, intolerants, bigots,and other classification to defend our heritage our future and living space than we have to be what our are enemies call us, but never ,never feel guilty for the struggle to survive in the human jungle.

Modern Greece ? What can I say that has not been said already. Greece was also modern in the 50's, 60's 70's. We had a clean,homogeneous and proud nation. We might not have produced scientist , or nobel laureates in their thousands, but so what ?

The immigrant /invasion phenomenom is a cancerous growth that was implanted in the late 80's. The massive non- white invaders pouring into countries in Europe, Germany, Holland, U.K., France,has now overspilled into our tiny nation. Modern Greece post 1990? I hate to admit it, that the level of production,the play of emotions,the way people talk, even our way of not giving a damn,our tolerance and indolence for antigreekness, these are symptoms of thirld worldness, and just as the white world is becoming thirld world ( but the thirld world has not turned white in the bargain) the problems of modern Greece, our Greece, will experience an incremental entropy, social,political,environmental.

The African Eve theory is Kaput.
A false theory that like the flight of the termite had its fleeting brief second of ideological high noon..

Although the research was sloppy , unscientific and speculative ,the political left strongly supported the African Eve theory. To say that this shabby Lysenko-like scientific fraud ,that burst into the scene in 1987 ,and the accompanying media
blitz was transparent in its unsubtleties is to waste one's breath. The motivation behind this audacious canard was to buttress the Marxist anthropological school of the derelict Franz Boas and his factotum Margaret Mead, who together have lorded over contemporary anthropology, and in America in particular, for all too many years. Today ,modern methods of research are giving scientists the tools to obtain hard data in areas that formerly were the exclusive domain of Boas and his school of monopolistic anthropoligical fraudsters, ensconced in tenures behind the fortress walls of Academia and pontificating at will.

Furthermore , non ideological anthropology is willing to consider the possibility that man developed separately in widely scattered parts of the earth and that various races took their present form on parallel tracks ,following widely varying schedules of development. Any common ancestor , if there was one , existed a long,long time before man had reached anything close to his present evolutionary grade. As evidence for this theory accumulates,the inevitable result will be the recognition that the different races of mankind differ profoundly, not only in their physiology but ,most importantly,in their cerebral apparatus, the locus of intelligence and personality.

African Eve was of the highest importance to the leftist intelligentsia because, if it could be proven that a Negro woman was the ancestor of every living person, than every living person was, at least in part, a Negro. Consequently the "fascist" anthropologist, like Carletoon Coon , Hamsuin and others, who held that the evolution of races took place in different areas and in different time frames, would be largely discredited.

An important byproduct of the Eve theory would be the psychological blow to so called "racists" of knowing that a remote ancestor was a black, thus making claims of racial difference- or superiority- sound rather farfetched.

The ideological Left never gives up, a number of anthropology quacks keep on peddling scientific schlock,and beating the drums about an African origin for mankind.

We are here dealing with theories. Another theory is that Africa at the time provided a suitable environment for primate development ( not any more, today the bipeds have encroached on their territories). The higher primates moved on ,to evolve far from the dark continent, into modern humans. As for the lesser developed or "laggard" primates left behind,they evolved into the present day blacks or negros. It will not take too long to prove this theory.

Thanks to Ethnocentrist for providing valuable researched data.

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Manolis...Since you decided to ignore my request to keep your comments civil, you are no longer welcome to comment on my blog. Any further comments posted by you will be immediately removed.

SeaWitch, Thank you for removing the above post. Removing comments is a tricky one, I know, but that was a clear cut case for doing it.

Dammit. I thought I caught it before anyone saw it. That post served no purpose whatsoever but to insult and incite.

My timing was just tooo good. I think I saw it about three minutes before you removed it! You are right. This is no place for posts that only serve to "insult and incite" As we know, there are enough places out there to do that.

I had been meaning to ask ethnocentrist, why did you post the article about Paris here? I imagine that you are trying to say that lots of black people together in one place equals civil war. To call what happened "civil war" is a gross exaggeration and would not have been used to describe the rampaging Greek youth I see in downtown Athens a couple of times a year. That made it to CNN too. Police in riot gear, tear gas, the burning cars, the smashed windows and people on both sides getting injured. When angry youth (they were demonstrating about what they saw as police killings)are confronted by the figures of authority they see as the enemy, riots and street fighting often follow. Have you ever stopped to think how right wing propaganda works as well. You seem to know a lot about the lefty marxist take on things but little about your own indoctrination by the right.
NO. I DO NOT CONDONE THE BEHAVIOUR OF THESE PEOPLE. I just wonder what is your point?

why did you post the article about Paris here? I imagine that you are trying to say that lots of black people together in one place equals civil war. To call what happened "civil war" is a gross exaggeration and would not have been used to describe the rampaging Greek youth I see in downtown Athens a couple of times a year. That made it to CNN too. Police in riot gear, tear gas, the burning cars, the smashed windows and people on both sides getting injured.

The only people who seem to be rioting and destroying things in Greece are the "anarchists" as I rightfully predicted during the major "hatewave" when you were warning people to "stay safe". Remember? Are you saying these are "normal" people? Anyone who is an advocate of "anarchy" is completely insane in my book. The only other riot I could find was from the Clinton visit and that was due to his abhorrent bombing of Serbia in order to deflect attention from his personal transgressions. So where are these routine riots that occur in Greece? Most come from a lunatic fringe, it appears.

As to the Paris rioting and burning, which happens to be going on for a SIXTH day now, this is reminiscent of the black riots of Rodney King, when the policemen that beat his sorry coke addled ass were found not guilty. They didn't "like" that verdict and the most likely recourse they came up with was to burn down LA and the brunt was felt by the business district and the Korean shopkeepers. Muslims got bent out of shape when two teenagers, aged 15 and 17, died by electrocution Thursday after they scaled the wall of an electrical relay station and touched a transformer. A friend who was with them said the boys thought they were being chased by the police, but the authorities have denied that was the case.

Maybe I'm naive, however when I have an authority figure tell me to stop or whatever, I do it. That goes when I was young and all the way up to now. Maybe it has to do with not really doing anything illegal and having no reason to start running and jumping fences. If two idiot teens are that stupid or that guilty, then that tells us something. I just cannot understand how people can be so unhappy living somewhere that they are "forced" to burn and riot, yet they do not make plans to leave this oppressive place they live in? Shouldn't that be a potential solution to these problems of Muslims? Why are they there and why do they not leave? Why not go back to their homelands? Isn't it "safer" or "more free" there? We know the answers. My questions are rhetorical.

Same goes for Denmark where there has been rioting as well and the Muslims defiantly state that "this land belongs to us".

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts

I am simply amazed at the brazen attitude of all third worlders and not just the completely backward Muslims. Just who is forcing them to stay and live next to the evil white man? Certainly not I. Instead of making their homelands better, they make ours worse. It matter not that you do not condone their behaviour because I have heard it ad nauseam from "decent" blacks not condoning thug attitudes or black criminality or aggressive, anti-white hatred yet they never do anything to prevent it. Same goes for Mulsims who all "silently" clamour about how they are against those "radical Muslims" yet they never stand up en masse and reject this current behaviour. It's all empty lip service, I'm afraid. It's easy to say I do not like that, from the safety of your home and knowing full well no one will ask you to defend your stance.

Speaking of which, with your incessant complaining about Greece and where it seems to be quite a chore for you to say anything nice about the country and its people (even after 10 or 11 YEARS from what I remember reading), when are your plans for leaving coming to fruition? Maybe your final utopic destination should be Jamaica? Certainly you've entertained THAT, have you not?

Have you ever stopped to think how right wing propaganda works as well. You seem to know a lot about the lefty marxist take on things but little about your own indoctrination by the right.

I know both sides of the propaganda. I was an ardent lefty for many years. Up until my early thirties. No more, as you can see.

Racial conservation has much in common with the conservation in nature. The conservation and protection of nature and the natural environment depended on the development of a conservationist or environmentalist ethic, a system of morals and values that appreciated and recognized the importance of the natural environment and sought to preserve it.
Racial preservation depends upon the develpment of a conservative ethic for race, or human nature, similar to the conservationist ethic developed for non-human nature. It requires an ethic, a moral, a racial affirmation and conservation to replace the current
ethic of racial denial and destruction, a morality with a positive view of race as a good to be appreciated, cherished,valued,loved and preserved rather than the current negative view of race as an evil to be discarded, rejected and destroyed.

What is happening in Paris, in New Orleans, and in Birmingham comes as no surprise at all. Thirld world invasion will recreate thirld world conditions in the countries subjected to this disease. In Greece we are incredibly fortunate at this very moment, the number of the invaders is still below the level to cause social entropy and racial discord. That is why the importation of non-white peoples is not to be tolerated in any degree. Greece is for Greeks, in blood, body and soul.

I don't think any sane Greek would like to read in the headlines, rioting in Omonia or Volos.

In France, the first African nation in the heart of Europe, the extinction of the French is happening right before our eyes. It is not hard to see that the original French Gaul is being erasede and replaced by memebers of the African/Asian continent.
The French disease did not start yesterday. It started in 1918, when the French in peacock arrogance declared they were a nation of 100 million ( taking into account the inhabitants of their African and Arab possesions.
They sinned against their ancestors and against European men when they enlisted non european soldiers ( Blacks and Arabs) to kill,maim and destroy Europeans.
France will be paying the ultimate price of race betrayal.
These riots are nothing to compare with the invasion Tsunami building up in the horizon.

Disturbances have been reported from Denmark as well.
The Islamists know their agenda and brook no differences. Islam claims to rise above nationality,and its ultimate vision is of a world united in submission to Allah, in which nation-states, as in the Marxist vision, have withered away.

Unlikely bed fellows are Islam and the contemporary regime of the Oneworlders,globalists, and pluralists. Islam and the new projects of the corrupt West have the same ultimate goal, that is the destruction of the diversity of nations and its replacement with a humungous unitary entity.
According to Islamic scholars and idelogues,they vouch that "Once a global Islamic movement acquires global following and legitimacy, all States ( Greece included) whose statehood is predicated on nationality may be considered under sentence of disintegration and death.

Unlikely bed fellows ? or the obverse and reverse of the same project. Ironically the American military, Nato, and pan European movements, are giving Islam great hope, because their power is so often used in the service of multiculturalism , globalism , and nation state destruction (more children are receiving the message of Islam, indiluted by the immigration pandemic and the multiculturel virus afflicting Europeans).



Many forceps are being applied in the targeted goal for the abandonment and denial of that which is one's own, Multiculturalism is the guise of one of these forceps.
It is imperative to abandon and deny the multiculturalism of our postmodern world, until we rise above our pathological self hatred and return to the certainties of tradition and kinship and soil and memory our hopes for the future are compromised.

What is happening in Paris, in New Orleans, and in Birmingham comes as no surprise at all. Thirld world invasion will recreate thirld world conditions in the countries subjected to this disease. In Greece we are incredibly fortunate at this very moment, the number of the invaders is still below the level to cause social entropy and racial discord. - Justiniano

This is absolutely true. Third world immigration in large numbers, be they assimilated or not, is a disaster of epic proportions. Let's watch history unfold before our very eyes in these very countries that were stupid enough to allow such mass immigration of such "different" people. This is actually quite fascinating as it unfolds because of its gargantuan importance and direct effect on other white nations.

Both the BBC and the BNP report troubles beyond Clichy-sous-Bois.

The list is:-

Aulnay-sous-Bois: Police resorted to using rubber bullets on Tuesday evening on gangs of missile throwing rioters. 15 cars set ablaze. Molotov cocktails thrown at a municipal buildings including a fire station and annex to the town hall.

Bondy: Four people were arrested for throwing missiles at police. Firefighters called out to deal with 14 burning cars and a carpet store on Tuesday.

Clichy-sous-Bois: Monday saw a fifth night of violence with “scores” of cars set ablaze.

Hauts-de-Seine: Mobile gangs were setting fires to waste bins and vehicles.

Seine-et-Marne: Sporadic attacks by mobile gangs on police, some vehicles set ablaze.

Sevran: The mayor of Sevran said youths set two rooms of a primary school on fire, and attacked several cars. Police said three officers were slightly injured in attacks on Monday.

Val-d’Oise: Throughout Tuesday mobile gangs were said to be setting fires to waste bins and vehicles.

Yvelines: Sporadic attacks by mobile gangs on police.

Sedan in north eastern France saw a night of violence, apparently unrelated to the Paris incidents but apparently in response to police arrests of a member of a drugs gang youths set fire to an empty building and trash cans and stoned fire trucks in several nights of unrest in Sedan, northeastern France, authorities there said Tuesday.

It’s terrible for the innocent people who are caught up in this. But in the wider scheme of things, it goes down as “happy trouble” in my book. May a few more (real) Frenchmen and women think hard on it and arrive at a healthy conclusion.


For anyone interested...

www.majorityrights.com

This reading is like a nightmare.
Let's hope and pray that our Greece does not succumb under the weight of the immigration propaganda. If there ever was a misbegotten conception it was the immigration scam they hoisted on our nation. It saddens me and pains me to see what is happening in cities where the riots are taking place. Greek cities are a short distance hours away from those not so far away cities .
Greece must not only bring down an iron curtain against non white-muslim immigration but should also institute repatriation measures of those already in the country.

A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Correct me if I'm wrong, however wasn't it the humanitarian, leftist, egalitarian who relentlessly pontificated doom and gloom, over-population scenarios for decades in order to FINALLY get the birth rate down for whites and NOW they tell us well need immigrants in order to maintain the workforce and tax base because we aren't replacing ourselves? Seems to me the leftists and their "bright" ideas are the scourge of the western world. They've done nothing but bring about one problem after another to humanity. This includes making the cesspool known as Africa worse with their endless monetary aid where even Africans have begun to realize that it is NOT the way to help it out of its prehistoric quagmire. Why are we still listening to these myopic, doltish, and mendacious "oracles"?

Since there are always calls of "xenophobia" as well as other uncomplimentary labels thrown at people who speak openly and honestly about racial issues, I thought I would add this little paper into the mix. By Phillipe Rushton...

ABSTRACT. Genetic Similarity Theory extends Anthony D. Smith’s theory of ethno-symbolism by anchoring ethnic nepotism in the evolutionary psychology of altruism. Altruism toward kin and similar others evolved in order to help replicate shared genes. Since ethnic groups are repositories of shared genes, xenophobia is the ‘dark side’ of human altruism. A review of the literature demonstrates the pull of genetic similarity in dyads such as marriage partners and friendships, and even large groups, both national and international. The evidence that genes incline people to prefer others who are genetically similar to themselves comes from studies of social assortment, differential heritabilities, the comparison of identical and fraternal twins, blood tests, and family bereavements. DNA sequencing studies confirm some origin myths and disconfirm others; they also show that in comparison to the total genetic
variance around the world, random co-ethnics are related to each other on the order of first cousins.


Rushton


The notion of wanting to be around others of like kind is natural. The notion of wanting nations to be filled homogenously is NOT xenophobic, but in line with what we have instilled in us and what has protected us from perishing into oblivion. Wanting all sorts of distant peoples is NOT the human norm. That notion is what has been indoctrinated into the western masses for the last half century.

Sorry, that paper can be found HERE