Sovereignty of SeaWitch

Great post SeaWitch and yes, I would be more than happy if you would post it over at THIS IS NOT MY COUNTRY.

The main issue is the fact of ignoring realities. The question and challenge is how do we take cognizance of it and deal with it.
The question and issue remains unanswered. The Turks slaughtered Greeks en masse. The salughter stopped when Greece attained her independence and separation of the two groups became a reality through border delimitations.

If we acknowledge that we need to recognize our differences and keep ourselves within our domains, we may have started on the road to re-formulate a plan to save us all from near elimination. History is the chronology of this reality, peoples,civilizations have come and gone, and the seeds of their dissolution have always remained the same; group conflict based on racial differentiation. Differences and the failure to acknowledge this differences have led to unending conflicts through the ages.
It is obvious that current political catechisms and social constructs are not leading us to a peaceful horizon. A crusade against racism is a self fulfilling prophecy and the target an elusive one.However it seems that the day is not far off when violent bloodshed in the name of combatting racism may become a reality.

A Zulu refuses to sit down and eat next to a Venda in a restaurant. Sotho workers are kept segregated from Shona workers in the mines of South Africa to keep the peace, the moment the barrier is lifted ,for a litttle fraternization ,bloodshed follows. Who has the God given right to force these two groups to blend together if they want to remain separate ?.
A commuter train in South Africa had a nasty episode, a Senegalese illegal was bundled out of the carriage and thrown out of the train onto the rails to his untimely death. The cause of it, one of passengers in the train,a Khoza, discovered the Senegales and accused him of stealing his job, the rest of the Khozas went beserk against the Senegalese national who only spoke a little french. Sad but real.

Maybe we need a revaluation of our values,by discarding failed social formulaes and understand that group competition in a single territory will ultimately lead to endless conflict, until one group prevails over all others.

" There is no room in the new Turkey for Greeks and Turks to live side by side".

Excerpt of a speech by Kemal Ataturk to the turkish parliament on the eve of routing the Greek forces and the sacking of Smyrna.

Greece and Turkey have been at peace thanks to the border and separation of the two peoples. The peace is tenuous and if there is an overlap by one group a reaction is expected from the other group.
The armenians were less fortunate, they were exterminated and exiled because they had no borders separating the two groups.

Let's combat racism by all means, constructively, and not by mealy mouthed declarations, by permitting different groups to have their own inviolable territories.

War is the mother of atrocities. When war breaks out there is no "right side or wrong side" when the issue at hand is the business of killing. Turks massacred and cleansed entire Greek villages during the occupation, the Greeks had no recourse but retaliate in kind whenever and in whatever measure they could, although their retaliation did not amount to massacres or extermination of the occupying force, but killing is killing regardless of who commits it. A palestinian strikes with their suicide weapon, the Isreaelis respond with the razing of a village,demolition of their homes and further killing.
It looks like we are innately born with the streak to kill. It is a matter of degree, and God forbid that you be on the losing side. America gets its tail tweaked at the twin towers, they respond in disproportionate measure by saturation bombing regardless of casualties or consequences, civilians die but they are part of consequential damages. The bombing continues and more bombs will be dropped and more killings from both sides will be inflicted.The americans with their inbred culture of indiscriminate violence are capable of slaughtering more of their perceived enemies, of course they always hide behind the "tom tom of human rights and other abstruse theories " to carry out their killing sprees. The victor will write history the way it sees it, the loser will obviously have a different perspective, provided the loser has sufficient numbers alive left to tell its own story. The Serbs commit an atrocity, the Bosniaks retribute in kind, Kosovars were haremed by american/nato bombing, the blame was apportioned to the serbs , the KLA dispatches Serbs at will in Kosovo and drives the Serbian population out of Kosovo. Who is the worst devil ?
I heard Papandreu make a comment in English about " not wanting multiplication of secessionist movements, but integration of minorities in the Balkans". Is Papandreu stirring the pot,preparing the ground for war ? He wants to integrate minorities instead of acknowledging them and contribute to their freedom.
A crusade of any anti "ism's" is fraught in the bossom of violence and destruction.

What if racism is the default condition in human nature, and being 'race-blind' a trait that must be atttained? What if humans are already hard-wired to spot differences in 'race' amongst a community, and discriminate accordingly?

Perhaps pleas against racism are going to be as futile as rants about abstinence being the only way to prevent AIDS. For the majority of people, it just isn't going to work.

I hope I'm just being overly pessismistic...

Laguna, I believe racism is learned. If you want to see our "default condition" look at very young children. Before the age of three or four. Before they have been indoctrinated into the culture of "difference is bad"


"and when a child is born
Into this world
It has no concept
Of the tone of skin it's living in
And there’s a million voices
And there’s a million voices"
Neneh Cherry. 7 seconds

Rants against racism on an individual basis are useless. Tidal waves of rants can make a difference. It is one of the only ways we have the power to bring about change. Words alone will not do it. Words that inspire action will.

As I was writing this ethnocentrist replied to your comment. He omits the last line of the report:

"Evolution may have prepared our minds to be prejudiced, but our environment influences the specific targets of those prejudices and how we act on them"

A child may have the ABILITY to become prejudiced towards vast groups of people because of a "percieved threat". We have the responsibility, as parents and educators, to ensure those instincts are channelled properly and are not towards generalised fear based on misguided notions.

Today, parts of former yogoslavia that have come under the sponsorhip and tutelage of the USA/NATO and EU forces have become veritable powder kegs.

The UN is busy running the drug cartel and the trafficking of white slavery ,jointly with the KLA ,in the hornet's nest called Kosovo and Methojia. A formerly peaceful area of Christian orthodox Serbia ,with large number of churches and monasteries has ben convulsed ,through American intervention ,and delivered into a cauldron of hatred, intolerance and racism. Today desolation and utter devastation reigns in Kosovo under the steely heel of the KLA .

The Kla racists are driving the Serb population out of Christian Kosovo.

200.000 Serbs have fled their ancestral homes , which ironically , UN/American/Nato "peace keeping forces" have been powerless or unwilling to prevent. They are refugees in their own country,( another 1922 in the making ,although in a different degree) waiting for a sunny day when they can reclaim their province and return to their homes, some now inhabited by the peacekeeping forces, others confiscated by the KLA mafia gangs, others destroyed.

The Balkans,with the exception of Greece, have long been a freeway for smugglers of cigarettes, drugs, weapons and prostitution.
These "trade industries" are now booming and being orchestrated with the baton of Albanian and Kla elite, under the watchful eye and guardianship of America/Nato/UN syndicate, who are also connivers and partners in these criminal enterprises.

The peace that America/Nato/EU troika of peacekeepers has brought to Kosovo is the kind of peace where no bishop,priest or monk can travel within the provinces ,to visit chiuches and monasteries, without an army escort. The remaining Serbs can not move about as they please. UN peace keeping tanks are everywhere, barbed wire surrounds the towns and villages of orthodox Serbs.
I understand, this is what America calls peace. Maybe we should ask the Serbs in Kosove their views on the interpretation and application of the word "Peace".



Whilst Americans at home and abroad were celebrating Thanksgiving day by piling and gorging themselves ,with enormous gusto, into their stuffed turkeys, the orthodox Serbs in Methojia were starving.
This is not a matter for a chuckle, it is a matter of life and death. However I understand that a chuckle is permissible as long as one is not having the roof over his head blasted to smithereens by bombs being dropped from high altitudes.

Regarding Simitis, the elegiac gentleman is incapable of solving his own problems without having to ask his bosses from USA/EU/Nato what to do. 1996 IMIA.

Simitis could only jump in the direction ordained by his paymasters.

As I said, I am extremely skeptical that 'feel-good' messages against racism will help stem the problem. The main reason is that they miss the actual point. What we are concerned about is not racial discrimination per se (discrimination defined as being able to note the differences between one group of people and another), but thuggery, pure and simple.

Simple analogy: a group of white teenagers beat up a 8 year old black kid walking along a dimly lit street and leave him for the dead. Was this racially motivated? I think the main reason why the teenagers did it was because the kid was weak and defenseless, not because he was black.

Same with the list of examples sea-witch originally posted. Though they may have racial links, the main reason they occurred was because it involved a stronger group of people oppressing a weaker group of people. In fact, the Spanish Inquisition (first example) was not because of racial reasons, but religious.

Pardon if my point has already been brought up by sotiris earlier. I only just read through his post ;-) Very insightful indeed.

Scruffy American

You are asking me for non greek sources ? If you don't beleive in what I say I am neither hurt nor chagrined. My own personal experiences and my own personal conclusions, in this case I am a greek and therefore I may come across to you as "suspicious and jingoistic". I am sorry. I also have a distrust and feel threatened of America's foreing policy makers. I visited Yugoslavia before the fratricidal conflict of the 90's, and was in Kosovo Methojia, with great difficulty,nine months ago.

As far as Clinton's wake up call from his deep sleep ( maybe she was with Lewinsky at the moment of the call ?) by Simitis about a"rock in the Aegean", it only reinforces my view that an employee must ask his manager, or his boss, for guidance when he is faced with a problem . The Turkish generals or the then turk PM, did not consult Clinton before landing a party on the islet. They went and did it. At the same time Clinton displays his ignorance of geography, the Aegean,strategies and power play. He was the President of the most powerful country, and Greece happens to be in America's sphere of influence, therefore he should have made it his job to know about the geography and geopolitics of a region considered as of vital importance to the USA.An unacceptable faux pas of a President, but then again what can one expect from an inmoral creature in the White house who has debauchery as his priority, licentiousness as a pastime,and kept a log book with records of his amorous exploits. Don Juan or Casanova, or even Boccacio, can not measure up to Clinton

Since you are asking about sources, I will quote you the ruminations of a famous Harvard professor : Professor Ignatiev, the eloquent professor fulminates thus :::

" The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists. The key to solving the social problem of our age is to abolish the white race. We intend to keep bashing the dead white males and the live ones, and the females too, until the social construct known as the white race is destroyed ,not deconstructed but destroyed"

::: thus spoke Zarathustra ??, No thus spoke Ignatief, Harvard professor. Please, since you seem desireous of non greek sources, I am confident you'll enjoy an American source.

Another famous American of the "Give me you huddled poor and your masses etc, etc, Susan Sontag elucidated that " The white race is the cancer of society"

Well what do we make of these expressions ?. Are they racists, antiracists, or Lovists expressions ?

We should ask a Greek, a Russian, a Serb, or even a Basque what do they think if some professor called their nation and race "a social construct".As a Greek and white person I am recognizing the professor as a very dangerous, pernicous, and diabolical character.
I am not holding my breath waiting for charges of "hate speech " to be brought against Beelzebub Ignatiev.

A similar opinion being aired but replacing the word white with black, would have provoked strident howls of condemnation, vilification from academia, main stream media,and other concerned bodies of humanitarians, and a demand that the opinion maker be sent to a Lubyanka type of institution to bee weeded out in sensitive training and other psychological torments and finally made to recant before being bundled into jail never to be seen or heard again. In the meantime everuthing is fine at Harvard with the tenured professor belching out his gems of social and philosophical wisdom.

Yes we need a big demonstration against racism, against the Ignatievs and Sontag types.

The word racism did not exist in Greece during the 50's and 60's, 70's. It begun to rear its ugly head with the uninvited arrival of strange foreigners. Now ,after 20 years of an uninterrupted flow, Greece is going to be faced with a crisis.

We can not crusade against reality, we can only fool ourselves. We need to demonstrate against racism, we Greeks have been victims through our history. The Turks defiled and exploited us, the Turks extracted blood tribute from their subject races for centuries, young boys were taken away from their parents and hauled off to the interior of the Ottoman Gulag to be brought up as Turks and constitute the bulk of the Jannissaries. Abduction of girls to provide fresh meat for the harems of the unspeakable Sultans and Beys and other Ottoman plutocrats. We had a turkish occupation and genocide perpetrated against greeks and orthodox subjects, serbs,bulgars, armenians ( who were decimated to the last one) assyrians. Now we are faced with the threat of another occupation, this one on the surface appears peaceful and innocuous, but it will be just as lethal as the Turkish one. We greeks are still the victims. We need to demonstrate against racism, yes , Racism kills indeed ,we don't want another occupation.
We just want to be Greeks in our Greece. I don't believe any foreigner should have a problem with that , apart that is from a certain Harvard professor Ignatiev.

" Well, you are so correct as always, ethnocentrist.,
Sorry there but it seems you have an answer for everything and you DID omit a VERY relevent line of the article as far as I am concerned. Well, "cover your ass" to me means you do not stand by what you say, you are only protecting what you think, against the opinion of the majority?
"
There is no need to answer, we will never agree. You will keep posting your opinion, (with "facts and statistics") which I disagree with completely and visa versa.
I thought at one point we found a common ground?
Over to you.

Professor Ignatiev is called "nutty". The professor is not nutty, he has a very brilliant mind, that is why is a tenured professor, and I may say above the law. To call him nutty is a sign of deep ignorance.
The professor's mind is as razor sharp ,cold, calculating ,and his schedule is rigged to a timetable and a mission. He is no expatriate living in some exotic island and taking gratuituous shots against the people he lives amongst.

Scruffy seems to have a terrible ax to grind with greeks,serbs and othodoxy.

The Croats under the watchful eye of the U.N, banished 150.000 Serbs from the Krajina region. Banished, expelled, gone for ever. We shall not mention the 200.000 from Kosova driven out by the Albanian KLA under the auspices of America/Nato/UN. I don't blame neither the croats nor the Bosniaks but the culprits are, blood thirsty and genocidal social engineers, sitting in the USA/UN.

During the war every federated state in former yugoslavia did bad things to each other. War does kill.And when the killing starts it is not easy to stop it. The difference now is that it is politically expedient to castigate Serbia. As usual after the conflict is over a scapegoat has to be found. Self defence by Serbia is an act of aggression therefore the matter of Sebrinica will be kept on the boil for as long as it will suit USA/NATO/UN. Nothing more could be said that has not been said about Sebrinica.
The forces that lit the fuse to render former yougoslavia asunder are the incumbent occupying forces of KFOR, UN and American troops. They came, they saw, they plundered and despoil and dispossess the natives of their land, territories. Nothing is said about the plight of all Serbs refugees, refugees in their own country, dispossessed and debased by foreign forces. Don't they count ? maybe they are not humans ? It reminds me of Madame mademoiselle Allbright when in a radio show, in 1998, expounded her humanitarian and compassionate facet, by declaring that " If 500.000 Iraqui children have to die in a year, it is worth it". It is worth it because it serves the purposes of the great Moloch, America.By the same logic let the Serbs and christian orthdox suffer, "it is worth it".


What idiotic maniac would propose that Greece should go to war in Iraq together with the megalomaniac Bush and his fire and brimstone gangsters in the white house, because, the Iraquies are moslems? Did Iraq threatened Greece's integrity ? I don't see the Iraqui 6th fleet sailing in the Aegean sea and keeping every client state in thrall.I don't see Iraqui army garrisons in Greece or in Europe, but I do see mushrooming American army bases in Europe preparing for war, I do see the American six fleet, american bombers, american bluster, american bullying, and american prepotence.
The seeds of war are being sown, and the time for the harvesting is not far off, I only pray that Greece may be spared.

Even if Srebrenica was every bit as bad as the Muslim Bosnaiks claim it was, it was still equalled only 5% of the fatalities that the turks inflicted on their Kurdish population during the 1984-1999 War of Kurdish Supression.

Yet, for some reason, Clinton and Blair were quite proud to have Turkish bombers attacking the Serbs during the Kosovo War, only a couple of months after Kurdish President Ocalan was abducted from Kenya. I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the fact that the West has traditionally viewed Turkey as a "key strategic partner"; that simply can't be the reason for this apparent double standard...

The problem or issue of race is never a legal, economic,religious,or even a social problem so much as it is a biological and a poltical problem.

I have never heard of racism demonstrations neither in Japan, China, India, or African countries.

Why not, surely these nations should be concerned about the perils and dystopic conditions that racism engenders. It seems that they have learnt the wisdom of the ages, the biological awareness, and keep their borders tightly sealed. There are no immigration policies, in these countries. Neither are they burdened with minority disturbances, riots and "No go areas" in their cities. Therefore they don't have to hold marches against racism.

Many Koreans migrated to Japan betwen 1910 and 1945, when Korea was part of the empire. There are now thousands of third- generation Koreans, who look, act, and sound just like japanese. They have permanent legal residence, but they are not citizens. They cannot vote or hold government jobs, and most japanese would not marry or employ them. The general feeling is that if Koreans don't like it, they can always go back to Korea which is where they belong.

In South Africa, ever since the European abdicated his position, 2876 european defenceless farmers have been brutally slain. The murder campaign is continuing.

The Asians are doing something right, we are not.

Racism can not be peddled, nor is a commodity to be bought in the boutiques of Paris or in the Brandenburg gate.

Competing groups, of biological disparate units ,locked in a single territoy and forced to mingle is an explosive cocktail for eventual disaster.

Today the racist tag and racism have become tools and weapons for certain groups ( immigrant groups) to enter into a process that will ultimately lead to their political and dominant ascendancy over another group ( the host ).
This should serve as a reminder to us all that while in the West we have been sounding the alarm against racism, now Asia and Africa have been sounding a clarion call of their own --that they are coming to conquer us.

4BN Asians and 1BN Africans, are searching and seeking a "a better life" in our homelands, or put it in another way using our homelands as dumping ground for their excess populations.

According to Spengler, he served advanced warning that in the XIX century "our western civilization, is threatened by not one but by two cataclysmic revolutions of grave magnitude. Neither of these two revolutions has been gauged or estimated as to its depth, reach and profound effects.The first one originates in the bottom , the second one has external origins : "the class struggle and the race struggle". The first one will move vertically and the second horizontally, they will converge as allies and the European peoples will then be faced with the ultimate challenge to their survival, whether they like or not ".

Each group of people deserves to be in his nation, in his own turf,enjoying his own rights, his own flag; then we can have relative peace and harmony, at least in the racial sphere.

We need to demonstrate against the racism that we are being subjected to in our daily lives. Distorting our history,calumniating our heroes, instilling a feeling of guilt, making us insecure and dispossesing us of our culture and wrecking our civilization.
When glorious Greece rose against the Turks, it was because the Greeks refused to abjure their nationality and reject the invitation to become modern day Turks.They refused to exchange Hellenic civilization for Turkic barbarism .Against turkish racism Greeks said no. It is sheer racism to extinguish the life of nations, be it through cruel wars, unfettered immigration, or replacing native populations with alogenous elements.
If we are going to take part in a march against racism it will not be to display hatred towards other societies but to express the unremitting love and desire for our own people to continue to exist, and to be capable of providing a future to our yet to be born generations in the same way as our forefathers did for us.

After reading all the comments, I submit the following:

1) Funny that you do not consider Greece when talking about the "freeway for smugglers of cigarettes, drugs, weapons and prostitution". Greece, like it or not is just as much a part of the problem. I can go to the "Laiki" (street market), and can obtain all the above with little to no problem. It is so easy to blame Albania, the UN, and the US for all the problems in the Greece, yet the Greek Government turns it's head to the abuses and lets the Newspapers and Television try to rally the people to a frenzy!

2) Kosovo is far from a powder-keg. I have walked the streets in Kosovo and Sarajevo during and after the Balkans war! The Balkans has always been plagued by the lack of tolerance for ethnic/political background. The sad thing is history repeats itself! If you look at the Balkans history, the common answer is not tolerance, but genocide! Croatian, Serbian, Albanian and Muslim should not be a factor, nor should being any of the above be a license to kill the other! And none of the groups are INNOCENT! The Balkans have relied on payback vice cooperation! Nothing sticks in my mind more than walking through the Olympic Ice rink in Sarajevo, and seeing the facility used as a morgue! Thousands of bodies being preserved because it's impossible to bury them. I have since returned to Sarajevo (Summer 2005) to see a complete rebuilding. The streets were chaotic, not from the bullets and bombs, but of the children playing in the streets. Yes, the UN/US still have a presence there, but the peace is real! And I went to Thank God at a Church and at a Mosque. (I was welcomed in both!) I have since raised a glass with numerous residents from all walks of life. They are just like you and me, a simple human being, a citizen of the world!

3) I have not been to Methojia, so I cannot comment on this. However, I think it highly unlikely that it is crawling with Tanks and barbwire! Check with the UN website, if it "has tanks everywhere", they must have the maintenance facility there, because UN presence is VERY SMALL!!!!

4) The UN has strayed from it's pure intentions, as seen with the Iraqi "oil for food" scandal and numerous other allegations. However, people find it a lot less repulsive than a US Global Police Force. Only us, the caring "Citizens of the World" can speak out with our votes to change this organization! What a wonderful world this would be if everyone would embrace diversity instead of Hate! Free the UN from Politics and give it back to the people!

Ethno is quite right. There is an on going cultural war. Those who refuse to see it that way do so out of pathetic ignorance or due to attitudes of self disrespect.

An interesting book written by the Mulatto Franz Fanon provides light in an otherwise dark and sombre chamber.

The book , "the wretched of the earth" is a an educational and didactic read.

In it Fannon's battle cry illustrates how deep,how impassable is the cleavage between East and West, North and South, despite Commissions of Racial equality and United Nations edicts. What Fannon is saying is that Greco-Roman civilization is nothing more than the thinnest laminate for those who don't inherit it by birthright. European languages, religions, customs are all just a varnish, a stain over tropical hardwood that can be sanded off easily and discarded the moment the "Europeanized" thirld and fourth Worlders no longer need it.
The African or Chinaman cannot understand us, nor we him. We cannot comprehend the syncretism of voodooism. Caribbeans find our "northern Christ" frigid and distant. The significance of Confucius is lost on us. In return. the Chinese cannot savvy our Humes,Kants and Nietzches. We are equally bewildered by the veiled and mysterious women of Bengal. Bengalis think our women are sluts.

And so it goes. The different races of mankind simply cannot understand one another, a tolerable state of affairs, so long as we are not forced to live together. When we are and when our governments lose their centripetal force by sins of omission or commission, then the inherent misunderstanding inevitably leads to tragedy. No amount of education will provide a happy ending.

Fannon sets out the boundary lines clearly and uncompromisingly. He makes us wonder if we really have anything, except bipedalism, in common with the rest of the world. Only fossilized Marxists and educationally correct academics, fired by that old religio-secular zeal, are stupid enough to try and rub out cultural and racial differences.

Ordinary folk are warned off or should be warned off by their instincts and the memory of a thousand encounters characterized by suspicion of blankness.

There can be few things more genuinely "wretched" than the man who hates his own blood.

Thanks for posting the comments about Srebernica. I'm going to save these and pull them out the next time one of my Greek friends starts blabbering about how great the Serbs are.

next time an American starts "blabbering" I will pull out th numbers of innocent civilians the US has killed, which is what, about 1,000 times as many were killed by the serbs?

For an american to have the daring to accuse the Serbs of genocide it is the epitome of shizophrenic lunacy. There are plenty of those lobotimized Frankesteins around. The main thing to remember is not to cry for Bosnia. If it is unfair to label people for the acts of their ancestors, such as converting to Islam, it is also natural for patriotic Serbs to look upon these living reminders of past humiliation with hatred and scorn. As Serbs see it, Muslims should have packed up and left when their turkish masters departed. I am inclined to agree with the Serb's point of view. The West has faced many dangers through the centuries. There were times when it seemed it would end up as an Asian possesion. On several occasions the life of the West hung in the balance. The men of Lepanto; the Poles,Czechs and Hungarians who fought the Mongols; the Knights of Charles Martel, who turned back the Arabs in France; the Americans who fought the Barbary pirates... these heroic Westerners deserve our eternal gratitude. In the course of the endless wars against the Asian tide, some whites were found wanting. This is normal. There are physical- and mental- casualties in every war. Some men are braver and more honorable than others; some are cowards who value their skins above all else.
Bosnian muslims are the descendants of Serbs who turned their backs on their own people. It is a mark of shame for all whites that there are Europeans who embrace an Asian religion and pledge their allegiance to Muslims, black, brown or yellow, rather than to their fellow whites.
Yes, it is rough justice to judge a people on the deeds of their ancestors. Nature ,however, is a harsh mistress. The Bosnian Muslims, as a people, betrayed their race. There is little more to be said. We should leave the Bosnian Muslims to the protection of Allah. If they ever need outside help , let Allah provide it. These people ,who were once of Serbs bone and blood, are no more members of the same family. Any of them who so chooses can, by a simple act of faith, discard his sordid link to Asia. If they choose not to ,they must live with the consequences.
Their fate should serve as a useful reminder to other whites of the wages of betrayal.

Kalki...8,000 men and boys were slaughtered at Srebernica. They were not killed in battle. They were not mistakenly killed. History is absolutely NO justification for the murders of 8,000 men and boys.

Their fate should serve as a useful reminder to other whites of the wages of betrayal.

Please clarify this statement. If you are advocating mass murder, then your views are no longer welcome on this blog.

Not at all, no one is justifying the mass murder of defenceless civilians.Wherever it may happen. Genocide is what the Turks carried out on their subjects in the days of Ottoman slavery. It is wrong to smear Serbia, for Sebrenica and accuse them of committing genocide. The Bosniaks also perpetrated massive atrocities upon Serbs. Nothing is mentioned about this. It is not politically acceptable to do so now. The problem is that some individuals in their blatant hatred for the Serbs, Greeks and christians carry an obsession to malign the orthodox nations.
When someone speaks with hatred in his heart, rational discussion becomes a scarce gift and is replaced by insipid "one liners". I think Sotiris made it quiet clear in an earlier posting that war is the business of killing. There is no excuse for killing. but when it is let run amuck, the civilians will become the major targets.
The facile "one liner" that American bombers killed civilians in Irak by accident is a corruption of logic and reason.
30 thousand civilians have died in Iraq by the bombing. Iraq had no army, to speak of, no air defences, no air force. "Shock and awe" was the Americans battle of cry. Who were they shocking and awing? Civilians. But when the news print is manipulated to suit the interests of the powerful, falshoods will be the staple diet. Therefore we are dictated to consider the civilian dead as "collateral damage". Well if I were a two year old toddler I will certainly repeat that. When the Americans were bombing Serbia,an inexcusable war crime, the vicitms were civilians. The Serb ground forces remained in their hideouts and suffered no casualties. The civilian toll made the Serbs to accept disgraceful and humiliating terms of capitulation.
The propaganda of the winner must by necessity make the loser an object of hate and its demonic presence aimed to be destroyed and thus justify any of the atrocities of the victor.
Today in Irak the mayhem and slaughter continues thanks to American intervention and occupation. But no one is calling it genocide. Just "accidental killings".


The list of American atrocities, and their proxis are awaiting for an International tribunalto convene to pass judgement and condemnation.

Therefore becoming obsessed with the Serbs atrocities and not mention the Bosniaks crimes against the Serbs, is an exercise in banality.

I suggest that my post be read carefully. Nowhere I am endorsing or justifying objectionable actions.
I am placing the incidents in an analitically historical context, rather than be carried away by sentimental emotions and parrot the conventions of contemporary published opinons.
If I have been misinterpreted, then I will abide by SW wishes and refrain from posting since we can learn little or nothing without having the latitude for allowing an exchange of , controversial, but robust viewpoints.

Thank you,

Kalki, your comments are still anti-American as you did not even comment on the thousands of deaths that Sadaam and his regime committed, as well as the minions of Al Queda commit. I assume you approve of these deaths since you refuse to acknowledge them. Your true colors show in your rambling histrionic.

Kalki...I do not cower from a good debate. However, condoning genocide as an acceptable punishment for the wages of betrayal is reprehensible. I will not debate the "acceptability" of mass murder. And I did read your post carefully which is why I asked you to clarify your last statement. 8,000 men and boys were murdered because they were Muslims. This is a documented, indisputable fact...not a smear campaign against Serbia. Just as it is a fact that hundreds of thousands of Tutsis were murdered by Hutus.

I listed only 9 examples of atrocities committed over the last few hundred years. There are many more that I did not mention. It was intended as a representative sample, not a complete list of all massacres, genocides and murders during modern human history. This particular blog topic was to illustrate the extreme results of mankind's racism towards one another. Not a complete history of the events surrounding each atrocity. When there are 8,000 civilians with bullet holes in their heads, dumped into a pit, don't tell me they are casualties of war. They are murder victims.

For the same reason a past injustice is not admissable as just cause or self-defence in a court of law for the murder of someone today, nor should the murders of 8,000 muslim civilians be excused because of the sins committed by others.

From above: "The innocents that the Serbs slaughtered ON PURPOSE is not the same thing as the innocents that Americans killed in Iraq BY ACCIDENT."

The reference need not be Iraq, but could easily be the American Indians, the people killed in free fire zones, and the hundreds of thouands of civilans killed intentionally during World War Two, or any of dozens of examples, inclduing very recent ones.

It is certainly correct to cite ewh various mass murders on the main list, but to think the US hasn't conducted mass murder is wrong. Only Americans think that. Fortunately US historiography is slowly changing to acknowledge this.

This does not constitute anti-Americanism, but rather reality. It would be anti-Ameircan to suggest the US is any worse, when in fact, they simply are no better.

BTW, Scruffy American(?), Srebernica is not in Kosovo.